1. His AK is most likely in trouble unless the villain is known for 3betting less than premium hands
2. He's unlikely to get villain to fold since he is probably holding a big hand/pair
3. He can get his money in with AK, but he better be prepared to see QQ+
And yes, if you miss and your cbet is called, you cbet the turn. But the villain is either raising/shoving your cbet or folding. If he does just call, he's either slowplaying a set or better or he missed (AK also?). I rarely see a standard player play this any other way, and until he proves he's not a standard player, I proceed like he is.
I don't think 4bet folding is profitable. If you run that repeatedly against unknowns, you'll be up against AK or better most of the time and villain is shoving, so you'll be folding most of the time. I don't think I've EVER seen a non-maniac or non-aggro 3bet and fold to a 4bet.
But its not a cbet. Its a donk. You aren't continuing the action with the bet on the flop because you aren't the aggressor once you b/c a 3bet. Donking is bad, so if you're flatting a 3bet, whether IP or OOP, generally you should be checking to the raiser. Otherwise its just burning money when he plays back at you and you fold.
But its not a cbet. Its a donk. You aren't continuing the action with the bet on the flop because you aren't the aggressor once you b/c a 3bet. Donking is bad, so if you're flatting a 3bet, whether IP or OOP, generally you should be checking to the raiser. Otherwise its just burning money when he plays back at you and you fold.
Then you check fold. You're right. Point is, you're almost certainly behind. Your only shot is to see the flop and hope you hit. Damage control at this point lol. He's not folding, period. Do you want to get all the stacks in pre and hope you hit? Or do you want to call the 3bet and fold when you miss the flop?
I have seen a lot of times people got nuts with AQ suited its just one of those things I see a lot of times and maybe you run into Jacks and Tens there too remmeber its 10NL ppl dont wait for hands that much.
Then you check fold. You're right. Point is, you're almost certainly behind. Your only shot is to see the flop and hope you hit. Damage control at this point lol. He's not folding, period. Do you want to get all the stacks in pre and hope you hit? Or do you want to call the 3bet and fold when you miss the flop?
OOP this! IP I'll flat the 3b. But OOP I dunno, I mean depending if its a tight agg reg like a 20/18 with a 3b of like 2-3%, i'm folding it to the 3b and moving on with no hard feelings lol.
Edit: Granted its not like BTN vs BB or something, then it changes things.
OOP this! IP I'll flat the 3b. But OOP I dunno, I mean depending if its a tight agg reg like a 20/18 with a 3b of like 2-3%, i'm folding it to the 3b and moving on with no hard feelings lol.
Edit: Granted its not like BTN vs BB or something, then it changes things.
I'm folding to the 3bet too. A few in this thread want to continue with the hand though so I was entertaining it for the purpose of the thread, and there just aren't many options. If you do flat the 3bet, you are pretty much obligated to shove if you catch a K or A and fold to anything if you whiff.
People don't wait for good hands often enough at 10nl.... Are you guys even playing the same tables lol.... It's so hard to find tables even at 5nl 10nl where theres 3/4 of the pack with 16/14 stats... with a good LAG in the mix and 1 fish.
Call the 3bet and then check-fold if you miss the flop. AKs is a good DRAWING hand, it is not a made hand. Thus, seeing the flop is a lot more profitable. You should only 4bet with QQ+.
Call the 3bet and then check-fold if you miss the flop. AKs is a good DRAWING hand, it is not a made hand. Thus, seeing the flop is a lot more profitable. You should only 4bet with QQ+.
I think it depends on the villain, but I would never call a 3bet OOP. I 4bet and fold to a shove. why the hell do I have to go allin if I 4bet and I know my hand is up against QQ+? I'm talking here about people with stats. Against an unknown... yes I call the shove and IP I 3 bet shove.
I think I would be 4b folding to a raise in this spot most of the time--
However sometimes I may just call to see the flop.- but I think that would be on a rare occasion--
I would rather be the aggressor- and if I dont know anything about the player this seems like the best approach to me-
I forgot to say that I mostly get AK in vs short and medium stacks, which have looser ranges anyway and you can't fold AK vs their shoves. Many of them are not playing MSS but are just randomly doing things and don't have good shoving ranges; it is common to see 22+, ATs+, AJo+ and often even KQo+ and (I kid you not) crowd favorite JTs.
I think I would be 4b folding to a raise in this spot most of the time--
However sometimes I may just call to see the flop.- but I think that would be on a rare occasion--
I would rather be the aggressor- and if I dont know anything about the player this seems like the best approach to me-
I'm not a huge fan of this... And the flatting the 5 bet is a pretty bad play IMO... Especially when we r OOP against villain. When we 4 bet... I think we basically need to be willing to get everything in pre for balance. I mean... Now that I think about it... If I'm not getting it in with AK at 10NL... I'm basically only getting it in with QQ+... Which makes me extremely easy to read when I decide to get it in... So I think I'm gonna play like this.....
When in position... I will be less inclined to get it in pre than when OOP... Because when I get it in pre I completely rid myself of my crummy position post flop lol. But I don't mind seeing a flop when in position, and when checked to I'm always betting... Does this style make sense?
This.
And now. If I 4bet and than get it in how many times I am ahead with AK? Suppose he is an unknown. Most of the PPL at 10NL are not that stupid so they still have something decent if they shove.
AKs,AKo vs TT+,AQs+,AQo+ (This the range for average ppl at 10 NL)
49.79% vs 50.21%
I can probabely add more pps but the answer is proabely we are behind most of the time.
regs do not 3bet 5bet these positions with AQ, a lot of regs don't even 3bet 5bet AK 100% (probably correctly so)
the average fish is passive and the average fish is not 3bet stacking AQ here or JJ for the most part (note i say average)
If you 4bet and get shipped on and assume his range is QQ+ AK then you still do not have a profitable call, 4betting AK and calling is worse than 4bet and folding, which means you are essentially 4bet bluffing with AK vs most in this spot.
We do NOT need to 4bet AK here, regs will not realise and even if they do, this is irrelevant, they can't do anything about it.
Its just going to be a leak a lot of the time when you just 4bet get it in vs an unknown (of course its gonna be fine vs some people) but everyone is still evidently fobbing it off as standard, when it's a standard mistake if you consider the maths and if you have a good idea of what an average opponent plays like.
I hate AK. You don't really have anything, you're just hoping to hit something on the flop. If you miss the flop, make a cbet, but if you get called or raised, just slow it down
You really have to know the range of the player before you can decide. If he is really tight and you notice he doesn't play too many hands, the 3 bet from him is showing he is very strong and so just flat and hope you hit. If it is another one of those donks who 3 bet with hands like AJ then just 4 bet.
