Folding KK preflop: would you do so in these situations?

[exidas]

all in if you have low chips or little raise if u have a lot chips

 

[BeardedMalarkey]

I understand that KK is the second best preflop hand and in most cases i will happily call of my stack with it. But there are certain, specific situations where I find when I do so I am almost always up against AA. Here are two cases:

1) I raise with KK from EP and a guy (let's call him Mr Nit) playing 10/8 with a 3B of around 2% re-raises me. I make a 2.5x 4bet and he then (min) 5 bets me.

2) Mr Nit opens from EP, I re-raise from a later position. Folds round to Mr Nit who (often after tanking for a short while) puts in a (small) 4 bet.

In the past I have always got it in with KK in these spots but since I cannot recall a time where I have been up against anything worse than KK, I am now questioning whether it is correct to stack off here. Here is my reasoning for the two above cases:

1) The nit has a low 3B stat which is already a narrow range of hands. The 3B vs my EP raise shows a ton of strength. The min 5 bet especially is a bit of a tell that they have AA.

2) When the nit opens from EP and I 3 bet him, there is a tendency at micros for most nits to just call the 3 bet with a hand like QQ. So when he 4 bets me (especially after tanking) he is representing that he has the goods.

Obviously if instead of the positions above, it was button vs blinds or CO vs BTN etc, then I would get in KK every time against the nit, but due to the nature of the POSITIONS in the above examples (at least one of us in EP) I find I am getting it in bad with KK almost always (in fact I cannot recall a time when the nit has shown QQ/AK in these spots). It would be interesting to hear what everyone else does in these situations...am I just getting unlucky over my sample or should I be making big folds in these spots?

Re #1: how many hands have you played with villain? those are clearly nitty stats, but sample size is an incredibly important consideration.

Re #2: No stats for this hand?

I think it's pretty damn-near impossible to justify folding KK pre, outside of exceptional spots. #1 is a fairly exceptional spot, and it's a tough decision for sure, but there are more underlying questions to be asked. The first q that comes to mind is 'what *kind* of nit is this player?' Is it just some guy passing time between KK+, or is it someone who's been card dead (this is why sample size is so important)? Another q that comes to mind is 'is villiain a thinking nit, or just a nit?' If villain is the former, they surely are aware that a good player is paying attn to their 3b%, and will take advantage of it from time to time. I'm generally a pretty nitty player, but have exploited that image vs short term opponents (less than 200 hands played) to get some folds out of people when I have worse than hands like KK

 

[PershingSt]

I believe folding KK pre is gonna be a mistake 99% of the time online , even with stats of a nit , you never really know what that other person is thinking and so often I see AK being treated like AA . I feel with how aggressive most online games play and without the ability to get a live tell / soul read someone , folding KK is gonna be a huge mistake pretty much every time .

 

[mottotom27]

thanks guys, i have been sticking to your advice to always stack off with KK and usually it works out for me. but there are times when my gut is just screaming at me to fold, here's an example from today:

Stacks:
UTG - UTG ($4.78)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 ($7.18) VPIP/PFR: 20/16
UTG+2 - UTG+2 ($6.49)
MP - MP ($3.93)
MP2 - MP2 ($5.00)
CO - CO ($5.00) VPIP/PFR: 16/13 3B: 6
BTN - Hero ($5.86)
SB - SB ($5.00)
BB - BB ($5.00)

Preflop: ($0.07, 9 players) Hero is BTN with Kh Kc
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, UTG+2 raises to $0.25, 2 folds, CO raises to $0.82, Hero raises to $5.86 (all-in), 4 folds, CO calls $4.18 (all-in), Uncalled bet of $0.86 returned to Hero

Flop: 9s 5d 5h ($10.37, 2 players, 1 all-in - CO: $0.00, Hero: $0.86)

Turn: 6d ($10.37, 2 players, 1 all-in - CO: $0.00, Hero: $0.86)

River: Th ($10.37, 2 players, 1 all-in - CO: $0.00, Hero: $0.86)

Total Pot: $10.37
CO shows Ac As (two pair, Aces and Fives)
Hero shows Kh Kc (two pair, Kings and Fives)

CO wins $9.94

I have about 200 hands on both guys, and it really scared me facing a 3B to an EP open between two fairly tight players. either one of them could have the bullets, especially the 3better. as i said, my gut was urging me to fold, but my brain was saying "bro it's standard to go all in with KK preflop, get it in!" in the end i went with my brain, and maybe my brain was right and it was just a cooler, but i can't help but think of how often these situations seem to crop up where i'm behind with KK in spots like this. it seems like i have KK vs their AA much more often than vice versa.

 

[PershingSt]

It's a cooler , in poker we all tend to have a "negativity bias" , where we remember the coolers that go against us but forget all the times we are winning pots in similar situations . KK over the long haul should be a huge winner and if it is not then you are doing something very wrong with it .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias

 

[mottotom27]

yeah i think it's possible that you're right and that i'm only remembering the coolers with KK but it still hurts when it happens

 

[da_goat]

I would only fold KK in the most extreme cases such as 3-4 all-ins ahead of me and facing tourney bubble. Heads up I would call almost always.

 

[guutox]

Heads up i would call always....fold only pos flop....pre flop never fold

 

[the_wonk]

i don't even fold AK much at all pre (altho there are spots where it makes sense to obviously.)

to drop KK preflop i'm going to need at least 2 other guys showing a lot of interest, and it's still going to be quite the rarity.

 

[erlanditas]

Can I ask you all? How can you fold KK pre-flop, AK off suit sometimes ok to fold but KK.... Never do that. You can fold on flop when in the board comes an Ace or bad cards

 

[joker131]

i fold KK deep into a torny if more than 2 players are flipping. and your near the cash line and your loseing more than half your stack

 

[wowasenotrusov]

in most cases, you will not play against a pair of aces. so feel free to play the all John .On the long run it will come to you in a plus.

 

[alexgl]

Several times caught at it. Having the KK, if I am sure that the opponent has AA - it is better not to risk it.

 

[LinkornU]

I wouldn't fold KK even if a guy showed AA 5 out of 10 times.
I mean there's always a chance that a guy has AA but I don't want to keep this in mind everytime I'm reraised.
Besides that many like to use their neat table image so even those super neat guys don't have AA everytime they reraise.

 

[Karametric]

some people are very very obvious when they have AA, and are not experienced enough to realize that they play the hand so differently than any others.

If you notice this, then yes, you can fold it preflop. I had such an opponent with kings a couple times, didn't follow my gut and went all in, and regretted it.

So, low skill tables, you can fold with a read. But as soon as players are mediocre (not great, not good, just not absolutely terrible) you won't be able to accurately get those reads. Best to go for it.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I might fold KK preflop when im deep stack and the other guy is a winning regular....

Keyword here is might...

I don't think it's ever a good idea to fold Kings preflop. I'd do everything in my power to get the money in here and if my opponent has Aces it's just bad luck. I'd much rather lost KK vs AA all in preflop than to fold kings and have my opponent show big slick or queens.

Thoughts?

 

[kozikpro]

lol never fold this hand in long play u have more ++ from this , only if i play game where situation is clear and i win and dont must play i fold

 

[nygmen2007]

KK is a hard hand to decide to play for, but it depends just on what spot in tourney you in.. if you are in the cash with a solid stack I would play it you play to win the tournament... unless you have a read that is...

 

[dagG1]

As 4 me the important part of play'in KK is the position.
In early - call or raise , in middle same way , late (SM ,BB, button) you may 3-4 bet)
But i really hate when some call with A3 A5 and on flop they got it...

 

[dagG1]

What do you mean when you're sayin bad flop - straight flush draw or some ace ?

 

[Steve2777]

Well basically i win mostly with KK but ive been even against AA and i have won so sometimes u are lucky and beat 2 aces

 

[carsguitars777]

holding Kk prefolp you have the second best possible hand, you want to be raising or reraising as much as possible, I do undersand if you are in a torney you dont want to bust before the bubble but you have the second best hand pre flop, I would play it very hard unless you have your opponent on AA, or if its neccesery to survive into the cash in tornyies, I have faced the same dellema with AA in tornies and as I always want to cash I have folded if near the bubble to get into the money... but from what I belive it is not the right play. unless you definitly have him on AA then go for it.. you will come out ahead in the end. If your going to wind up with multiple opposition then it get a lot more confusing in a torny... one of the reasons I like cash games more. I can make the right move without as many veriables. and not having to worrying about that bubble.

this is why torniament play and cash games play so different, the obviouse move in a cash game might mean you get out before the money in a torny, and the right move in the mtt is horrible in a cash game, poker is so complex its crazy.

I have had this happen so many times, I got AA and have already invested so much into the pot, in a torney. If I go all in I have a plus expetation on doubling up, but if I fold I will defintly get into the money. what is the best move here idk. as they say play to win not to place, but in poker isnt making money what is considered winning?