Check Raising a Maniac

[Erik343]

Is check raising a maniac a sound tactic? I am going to Las Vegas on Saturday and I want to be prepared. Most of the time I play a live cash game, there is one maniac to isolate heads up. Is check raising a passive calling station or rock a bad move? Thanks!

 

[ObbleeXY]

Tactics vs Strategy - both require context

Is check raising a maniac a sound tactic? I am going to Las Vegas on Saturday and I want to be prepared. Most of the time I play a live cash game, there is one maniac to isolate heads up. Is check raising a passive calling station or rock a bad move? Thanks!

Can we get some context on this?
What is the game? What is the format? What are the limits?
What is the history?
What are the positions?
What is the action leading into you?
What are the tendencies of those who act after you?

The question just doesn't really make any sense without context.

At this point, it is like Shroedinger's question. It is both a good and bad idea, but we cannot tell you when it is good or for which circumstances it is bad -- because you've really given us nothing to work with.

A maniac and a passive-calling-station are COMPLETELY different.
A maniac is usually 3- and 4-betting...and often shoving at any sign of weakness.
Calling stations are people who gamble. They want to see the river and KNOW whether they have the best hand. They spew chips all day *HOPING*. And I love them. Sucks if you try to bluff them...cuz you'll fail.

A calling station and a ROCK are different too. The Rock has a made hand with potential to improve. A calling station just doesn't know their strength until the river has come and all hole cards are on their backs.

The way to treat maniacs is to ignore the bluster. If you've got something, treat a maniacal bet as a normal bet and fold/call/raise as you would a normal bet. Sure it will be uncomfortable, because even maniacs get good hands sometimes.

I tend to play tight and just wait for the opportunity and four-bet. To me, a four-bet is just as powerful as a check-raise, with the added benefit that the pot is MUCH BIGGER. But yeah -- check-raising is an option some of the time.

But I wouldn't use check-raise as a tactic without the card strength to back them up. The maniac will not be thwarted by betting. He will be destroyed by a showdown.

But yes, if you are encountering a lot of aggression, it is simple to take a passive approach and let him fall on his own sword / hand you over all his chips.

If it is a cash game though, I just get up and move. Unless you are prepared to lose your stack in one go...or sit around all day waiting for a hand which can safely call off this maniac...you'll have to put up with it. Why spend all that money on your dream trip to Vegas only to have it spoiled by a maniac? Screw that.

So that is why I'd typically go join a different game. But sometimes, I'll get into that "nobody calls me chicken" mode and typically will call the, off or check-shove against them (getting called by 72o and losing to a boat).

With maniacs, it really depends on how they respond.
Some maniacs will respond to a bet with a big 3/4 bet.
Some maniacs bet high coming into you but fold when they encounter a show of strength.
whether you check raise, or open normally depends on this.

also note: a rock is not really a passive calling station per se. They are players well aware of the value of their hand, are cognizant of its showdown value, and VERY aware of who the LAG/bluffers at the table are and are often not going to be pushed off a pot where they have second pair or better.

In the end, a check-raise is a specific tactic, but you're trying to declare it as a strategy. Tactics are short term operational decisions. Strategies are long term.

Generally, don't bring a tactic to a strategy fight...or vice versa.

Enjoy your trip. I've still not been to Vegas yet, though our weekly poker group is planning a trip for October (when the weather cools down a bit). Good luck on the felt.

Cheers,
JT

 

[Erik343]

The game is $1/$2 no limit and is a cash game. I am heads up vs the maniac. I am out of position. The street is the flop. Let’s say the pot on the flop is $40 and he bets $30. Assume that I strong hand such as top pair or better. The maniac plays half of the hands dealt to him and bluffs frequently. There is nobody to act after me, so don’t worry about their tendencies.

Thanks!

 

[Evan Jarvis]

The game is $1/$2 no limit and is a cash game. I am heads up vs the maniac. I am out of position. The street is the flop. Let’s say the pot on the flop is $40 and he bets $30. Assume that I strong hand such as top pair or better. The maniac plays half of the hands dealt to him and bluffs frequently. There is nobody to act after me, so don’t worry about their tendencies.

Thanks!

Sometimes you'll want to checkraise, but often against a maniac if you have a really strong hand the best thing to do is just call and let them keep betting.

With medium strength hands that you think may be best but could also easily get outdrawn you may want to check raise 'for protection'

But with really strong hands that are unlikely to get outdrawn just calling is often the best play. It's good to give your opponent a chance to 'catch up' and make a second best hand that can pay you off more and may have trouble folding.

It's always going to be situational, depend on board texture, stack depth, and all those good things. But hopefully that little tip will help. And here are a couple of videos that may help with your thought process as well!

The video is related to stronger loose players, but with the maniacs you can just take it one stop higher and adjust. Give them more rope, more room to bluff. Since their ranges are often weak, playing slow is often the way to go.

Hope that helps and good luck in Vegas!

 

[blueskies]

When you say maniac, is he really out of control and cannot fold or is he just exploiting perceived weakness?

If the former, sure check raise if he doesn't seem to understand what that implies about the strength of your hand.

If the latter, better to just call down. I have played against people who you can take their entire stack just by calling 4 times (preflop and 3 streets).

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

The game is $1/$2 no limit and is a cash game. I am heads up vs the maniac. I am out of position. The street is the flop. Let’s say the pot on the flop is $40 and he bets $30. Assume that I strong hand such as top pair or better. The maniac plays half of the hands dealt to him and bluffs frequently. There is nobody to act after me, so don’t worry about their tendencies.

Thanks!

Like Evan said, you wait and trap them with a good hand. You don't need to bet into them since they're do that for you. Nothing more beautiful than letting someone do what you want them to do for you. If you're playing $1/2 then let them be the table boss and wait for a hand to go set mining or have a nice premium hand against them. Don't shove, 3 bet or do something crazy with a big drawing hand like AK, AQ etc. See the flop and let them bet into you.

If you get into hand with like Ts and the board has 2 over cards and the betting gets out of control then just wait out the storm and try again later. I loved playing these players during the poker boom. They paid my bills.

Nothing better than getting this type of person wearing sunglasses from watching too much TV poker at a $1/2 table, drinking beers, raising like every pot to $10-15 and watching them cbet the flop and take down pot after pot on a Friday evening or Saturday.

You want to be after them at a table so you have position on them or across from them but not to their left or 2 seats before them and whatever you do, DO NOT SHOW STRENGTH WHEN YOU HAVE THEM. Do not let them off the hook.

Love these type of players, no idea what they're doing that watch too much TV poker. Easiest folks to play against but they'll give you bad beats so be ready to rebuy. You just need the right mindset to get them but its fun to watch as they choke themselves, lol.

 

[63burner]

Not just the maniac..

Trying to isolate a maniac with a check-raise is a viable tactic, with issues. Issue #1; the maniac may have an equal or better hand. Issue #2: since only strong hands will play a check-raise, every hand your opponents will play strong all the way to showdown. Many times you will try to isolate a table, and the whole table comes back at you strongly.
If you do the check-raise to isolate a maniac, have a good stack behind you so you don't over-commit.

 

[sincos]

Against such a player, I play for the whole stack, even on TT

 

[Erik343]

Thanks for the advice guys!

And I am talking about a maniac that is completely out of control…