Check Raise Bluff:Value?

[ventrolloquist]

Hi guys, can anybody explain why check raising should have a bluff to Value ratio of 2:1?

I understand bluff to value ratios when it comes to being the first to raise on flop turn or river (ie: Pot size bet requires a B:V ratio of 1:2).. But what's the deal with the ratio flipping when we check-raise? I'm assuming this is for a 3x check raise?

 

[gustav197poker]

The main idea is to protect our range of value. If we can compensate the values with enough bluffs, the theses latter should be of a proportional amount, because it is also not good that we have too many bluffs since that means that we are isolating ourselves more with the range of value in V. This could to be good sometimes (when we have the nuts), while in other cases we are want the villain to keep more bluffs in his range. Everything will depend on the situation in which we find ourselves. The ratios will always be an approximation and we should not strictly adhere only to these structures.
Greetings.

 

[poliaris747]

I never pay attention to these percentages in my game I only focus on my cards and my notes on the caller only this

 

[AKQ]

Hi guys, can anybody explain why check raising should have a Bluff to Value ratio of 2:1?

I understand bluff to value ratios when it comes to being the first to raise on flop turn or river (ie: Pot size bet requires a B:V ratio of 1:2).. But what's the deal with the ratio flipping when we check-raise? I'm assuming this is for a 3x check raise?

Probably has to do with getting decent fold equity.
If the check raise is too light
your losing value/-SPR and fold equity.

Besides the bet sizing of 2;1
the likelihood you're bluffing shouldn't be so "Do this 1/3 of the time do that 2/3"
Base your bluffs and check raises on a players range, position, board texture and prior tendencies.

 

[fundiver199]

I assume, you mean check-raise on the flop, if for instance we defended our blinds? In that case the reason is, that our check-raise bluffs are draws, so they have decent equity. Some are actually so strong, they are almost not even bluffs. If the flop is bone dry like K22 rainbow, then the GTO check-raising range will contain less bluffs compared to value. Possibly a solver would even tell us to not have a check-raising range at all, because its such a way ahead way behind situation.

 

[Swat1197]

Need to be 1:2 , and can work on bords with ante

 

[UkoChebuko]

Do you mean balance!?
The easiest way is to look this from the eyes of the opponent. If he have enough pot ods to make profitable call or 3bet (reraise) with some weak hand, then you balance is wrong.
When you use balance for a ranges, you must realize they will be "value heavy". Like one part bluff, two parts value. But if there are semi-bluffs, you can use more bluffs. If you use this for preflop ranges, when your "value is strong" (pocket pairs), then you can use 50/50 ratio bluff/value. But mainly is one bluff/ two value...What's why GTO is such a passive style. It's easier to balance you range for call, than for bet/raise.

If you want high percentage balanced check-raise range, then your value range must be so wide, so weak. Top pair, second kicker , something like this.

 

[ventrolloquist]

Thanks for all the answers guys, they all make sense, but they don't quite answer the question. I'm still not understanding mathematically, why it's 2:1. The math for bluff:value ratio makes sense to me if we're talking about pots where nobody reraises. It's mathematically unexploitable to bluff 33% of the time when you PSB river hence 1:2 bluff:value.

But why is the ratio 2:1 for check raising? As in why are we bluffing so much more, fold equity explanation makes a lot of,sense however is there a maths proof that this is the unexploitable ratio?. This is a bluff to value ratio that would be impossible to reach no matter how big you bet if it wasn't a reraised pot.

I want a formula that explains this

 

[UkoChebuko]

2/1 ratio is when you use a standard size. Depends on your size. If you use huge size for raise, then you can add more bluff. Like the overbet. The overbet have more bluff than 2/1 if this bet is "balanced".
Like as said, look the spots from "his eyes". And you will understand. See with which hands he can call profitably.
And you can raise more IP. Because you can add for bluff some hands, which you can't call, but you have some outs, some equity. You can check back. This not be always, he can 3bet, he can donk OTT. But still you can use more raise IP, than check-raise. But raise postflop isn't a standard move, you ranges for call becomes weaker. And you are talking for balance. It is not so simple. What's why GTO is more "easy" with two ranges, not with three. I mean you have range for fold, range for call. You must take some hands from your range for call. For value raise. And then becomes more difficult to balance your range for call. It is not a good move, you know. The bluff raise. I use that only bluff heavy ot value heavy. Mainly 100% bluff, 100% value (exploit). But if we talk about this, in which spots is the best the balance, then, yes, this are the best spots. Check-raise. If you are talking about micro limits. Because very rare you will know how the people will react against this. You will have some assumptions, but rarely you will be sure. But again, it is better to use "value heavy" balance or "bluff heavy" balance (not "perfect" balance). You can't use GTO for microlimits. I mean a "perfect" balance. GTO still will "win" some money at the microlimits, because the people are overaggro this days. But there is a better way. Exploit...

I will try to explain this more simple. If you expect more FE, then use more bluffs. Like 50/50 ratio. But be carefull for the value raise. Must be only very strong hands. If you expect less fold equity, then use more value hands. Very rare a bluff. let's say 25%...And you can add weaker hands for raise. Like two pairs. Depends on this vs which position you raise, how wide is his range for open raise (3bet) and his calling range vs raise. That's it. When you have more experience, you will use some solvers, and you can use some balance. Perfect or not. But if you understand this, you can do that very easy without software. This is just a tool. "Help"...Not a "teacher",a "coach"...

And ofc you can add more bluffs, if there are some outs. If there are many outs, more bluff then. Also if the draws are pretty strong. With overcards, Axs FD, hands with showdown value...

Also don't forget about the rake. If you play at micro big pots very often, this is not very good, you know. It is better when the rake "have" a cap.

 

[UkoChebuko]

This "perfect" ratio for bluff/value can't be exploitable. Let's say vs his range with 2/1 value /bluff ratio you have 33% equity or 1 of three times you will win. When you call and he shows a bluff. No matter if you call or fold. If you can't beat his value range. Actually is better to fold, because the rake. But you can't have profitable move vs this guy. That's GTO actually. He is doing mistake ofc, because he play against the field. With no profit, BE move (- EV, because the rake). Don't do his mistake.

And GTO have "interest" only for the "absolute" value of the hands. Not for "relative" value. And this is pretty bad. If you play for exploit, you dont think about "absolute" value (blockers for example). GTO is only a tool. You use this tool to play better exploit. Like in this case. If you know what is the "GTO check-raise", then you can make an adjustment. Exploit..."Perfect" exploit.

 

[UkoChebuko]

And the math..."Formula". And don't know any "formulas", sorry. Let's say he bet half of the pot, you use 3x check raise, as you said. Simple example. No equity in the bluff. K22, right!? And you raise as bluff with T9o. When he calls with JJ he will have BE call vs your 2/1 value/bluff ratio. And still he will have equity vs you value range (2x) and you will have equity with your T9o. Can be so simple . No "formula". What's why the people learn this stupid GTO, all day, every day.