Bad etiquette to ask to see the losing hand?

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johnnythemoss

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[Timestamp 24:00]

In an episode of 'The Big Game', there's a pot between Tony G and Jason Mercier. On the river, Tony G checks and Mercier bluffs at the pot. Tony G calls and Mercier mucks his hand saying "you got it". Tony G tells the dealer to open the hand.

The players seemed to agree that this is bad etiquette. But when someone bets and you pay to call their hand, shouldn't you get to see their hand by default? Not showing your hand when called keeps your game disguised, giving you an advantage (in theory). I don't get why it's so bad to want to see how your opponent played the hand, especially when you paid to call his bluff. Or is this just a difference between live poker and internet poker?
 
B

Buwwows

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Online the hand is automatically viewable as the rules dictate you've paid to see your opponents hand. I think the etiquette side is more attributed to not embarrassing players who have bluffed. Its probably more an old school unwritten rule to make sure the fish aren't discouraged from playing. There are occasions where it is important to see hands to ensure there is no collision.
 
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Dhendrixon

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When I call a bet, I wait to their hand is turned over before I reveal mine. If they just toss it in the muck I ask the dealer to see them. This is because I paid to see their cards and that is valuable information. I think it is bad etiquette to ask to see their cards if they didn't call a bet.
 
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fundiver199

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I think the etiquette side is more attributed to not embarrassing players who have bluffed. Its probably more an old school unwritten rule to make sure the fish aren't discouraged from playing.

This might be. However not showing your cards is a real advantage, because then you are denying the entire table valuable information. So this table talk might also be about the other players trying to make Tony G look bad on TV. When in fact it was Jason Mercier, who was playing a little dirty by not showing his cards, when the rules clearly state, he needs to show first.

I think, its kind of a streach to say, its bad etiquette to insist, that the rules are followed, unless there is clearly some kind of gentleman agreement to play in a different way. That could be the case in a private game, but if I was playing in a public casino, I would insist, the rules are followed, and I would not care, what the others players thought about it.
 
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fundiver199

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Also while it might be true, that a professional player should let a recreational player get away with mucking his cards to keep him happy, Jason Mercier is certainly not a recreational player, so it does not apply to this situation ;)
 
Vallet

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Jason Mercier was crushed in this hand. We can see it in its appearance. Tony G read Mercier's actions as an open book. He not only wanted to get information about the opponent's hand, but also for others to see it.
 
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Buwwows

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Yeah I completely agree that you are entitled to see the cards. Just explaining why in the past people have considered it better not to. In a tournament setting where chip dumping is a possibility then it is essential that players can see that they aren't mucking the winning hand. In a cash game it's more about whether the information is of enough value. Mucking your hand is normally only done as an acknowledgement that you have made a good call and they can't be good
 
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gustav197poker

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It's a bit strange that T.G to check on the turn, considering that J.M's range doesn't have many low values. In fact, the most likely are 6-6 and 4-4 for this texture, which could have limped in position relative to opener, following a borderline preflop. At this point T.G without relevant blockers should continue to extract value from new draws that appear on the board. From the perspective of how J.M might interpret this, the opener of the hand may have sought fold equity on the flop with several Kxs in his range. And now on the river J.M in position could try to knock down all those combinations of air that do not have an A in the range of T.G. Considering that J.M's hand blocks some draws like AT; KT; K9; 8-9, it's perceived also seen that T.G has a reduced value range on the river.
So it was probably unnecessary to request here that J.M show the cards, as there are not many dominated values in his range. I guess T.G asked for it to be sure J.M didn't float with trash hands, or to make it clear that he is a tough player. In any case, I don't think you have benefited much from this information. If I were in J.M's shoes, I would see T.G's attitude as that of an insecure player and this would not affect me psychologically, if not quite the opposite. In any case, T.G has right to request that J.M's cards be shown since he has paid to see his bet.
Greetings.
 
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Mahdi

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It's fine to ask to see your opponents hand when you don't know him and studying him, but on such high level where were playing Tony G and Jason I guess they played thousand of hands with each other and they know what do they do and what they can play. That`s why it considered to be bad etiquette to ask to see his hand, he was just curios and nothing more, and on their level it's not a reason to see your opponent's hand
 
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BatOneHat

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You Paid

If you call, you have paid to see their cards. It’s your right to see them. Not an issue online.
 
Igor Popadyk

Igor Popadyk

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if the bet is paid, then you have to show your hand, if you do not show, this is bad etiquette and you psychologically influence your opponent, this is also part of the game
 
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c0rnBr34d

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This might be. However not showing your cards is a real advantage, because then you are denying the entire table valuable information. So this table talk might also be about the other players trying to make Tony G look bad on TV. When in fact it was Jason Mercier, who was playing a little dirty by not showing his cards, when the rules clearly state, he needs to show first.

I think, its kind of a streach to say, its bad etiquette to insist, that the rules are followed, unless there is clearly some kind of gentleman agreement to play in a different way. That could be the case in a private game, but if I was playing in a public casino, I would insist, the rules are followed, and I would not care, what the others players thought about it.
This is a very reasonable reply but for whatever reason it is common in the live games I've played in that people consider asking to see the hand bad etiquette. I probably don't know all of the reasons but some of the reasons I've heard given over the years are that it slows the already painfully slow live game down and that on rare occasion V will have misread his hand and show a winner (if it hasn't already touched the muck). So many will say that it's not worth slowing the game down and risking a misread just to get some additional information. It's also fairly common for people to muck bluffs in this scenario so it would involve digging through the muck several times per dealer to get your curiosity quenched. Since it's so common I wouldn't really consider it sneaky or dirty play. It probably should be considered worse etiquette then asking to see but for whatever reason it is not.

For the record, I tend to agree with Tony G. Especially if I'm playing with tougher Vs. But after a while I stopped asking to see on most occasions due to etiquette concerns and keeping the game and vibes good (especially for the fish). Now when I play, as some other posters have said, I will not show my cards until V has shown as a default if I make the call. And if V mucks I'll ask the dealer if Vs hand is dead then I'll muck behind since I have the only live hand and must be awarded the pot.
 
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1nsomn1a

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An interesting game of poker, we can win a lot of money from an opponent without worrying, we can leave almost without a penny and at the same time worry about the rules of etiquette when we ask to show their cards, especially when we have already paid for this information.:)
 
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fundiver199

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Now when I play, as some other posters have said, I will not show my cards until V has shown as a default if I make the call. And if V mucks I'll ask the dealer if Vs hand is dead then I'll muck behind since I have the only live hand and must be awarded the pot.

Sounds like the right solution. I guess, one can say, that the bad etiquette comes from showing out of turn and THEN insist on seeing the losing hand. When someone has showed out of turn, it is perhaps understood, that they dont need to see the losing hand. The point about people accidentally mucking the winning hand is also important and a reason, why you should probably just always show your cards at showdown. There are some videos on Youtube with hilarious mis-reads leading even good players to muck the winner. If I remember correctly, even Phil Ivey has done it.
 
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Buwwows

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Yeah Ivey mucked a flush. Some places will insist you show your hand even if your opponent has mucked if it has gone to showdown
 
DougPkrMonsta

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Asking to see a losing mucked hand in a high stakes live game is definitely frowned upon and all the players know it... that's why Tony G. did it... to get under their skin and try to induce tilt.

I know people who do this in live games to embarrass their opponents and it just makes them leave sooner than they would normally - if someone wants to muck, let them and take the pot. There's such a thing as a bad winner!

Good luck! :D
 
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ROYALROAD

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When often folding from enemy's enormous volume bed, there is a player who shows his hand to an enemy.

But that isn't that It may get it for the player.
 
Q

Qrise

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to be honest, it's strange that he even asks about it, even if there was a bluff.
 
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crazycitizen

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I have been told it's bad etiquette to ask to see the villain's card in this spot.
Though I do not think it's bad etiquette.

If the villain mucks his hand already, how I understand it, is their hand is dead, and cannot be accurately retrieved. Therefore you win the pot regardless, and do not get to see villain's cards.

Personally I always show my bluffing hand, and I will always ask to see their (bluffing) hand, unless they want to muck before I have shown my cards - then that is their choice imo.
 
tauri103

tauri103

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he should show those cards because that's part of the reason his opponent calls him. the dealer should remind him of the rules and make him show them. I have not seen the video but normally it is not for him to create these own rules.
 
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