Anyone playing NLHE cash with 40bb?

[btc87]

Thanks loafes, for being the only one that tried to give some arguments instead of just saying true/false and quoting the same useless quote again.

I am not going to argue, math does it's job - the hourly rake at 16 40bb 100NL tables is more than twice than the rake at 9 100bb 50nl tables. I can do the first with less stress and the same hourly winrate as I can do the second one (again, personal oppinion, if someone is crushing 20 tables with 100bb obv no need to even think of 40bb).
The times when you could just setmine and stack 100bb any pair are gone, a long ago.
And not, I haven't lost money HU, I was making a ton there but a few years ago, now the games are dead - nobody wants to play if you sit and I can't wait all day hoping a fish might sit me. At 100bb 6max I haven't lost, but I'm not good enough there and it's too stressfull for me.

 

[Keith_MM]

lmao .... you start off advocating short stack play then go on to admit you were a Heads up bum hunter . You sure know how to antagonise regs don't ya.

The times when you could just setmine and stack 100bb any pair are gone, a long ago.

why don't you just learn to play poker then rather than sticking rigidly to your push fold charts since that is all you seem to be interested in .

 

[rdm4k]

dunno if crossposting is against the rules of this community. In the doubt I post it then a mod can easily delete. I dont think is going to be a problem even though it is a bite of strategy. IMho worth a lot.
The subject is a bit outdated cos it is from the far 2007:

Cry me a river is a well know top posted of a notorious community. He wrote the following which is an incredible post:


**Mod Edit** We can't allow just copy/pasting from other forums (they tend to frown on that as would we were the situation reversed). Please just post a link (we have no problem with that when a situation warrants it and the info is good).

 

[btc87]

I don't know why noobs that doesn't know the difference between bumhunting and sitting to play anyone even try to write here. And I don't have push or fold charts, they are for <30bb poker.

 

[fletchdad]

Many people do not like SSèrs, for reasons mentioned, and think it is a bad thing for poker, some reasons already mentioned although they should be pretty clear - Think about the new players who will say "fuk this" and consider another spare time hobby because of the H+R SSers as one example.

And no one (I would have to read through the thread again to be sure, but I think it is so) has personally insulted or been disrespectful to YOU as a person. The disrespect is shown to a group of players who, as a group, deserve no respect from the hard working, thinking player.

So why do you have to be so disrespectful to those who disagree with you?

 

[btc87]

I can point you at least 8 disrespectful and offending posts in this thread (not a signle one wrote by me) and you say that I am the disrespectful one? lol

If you've read this thread you'd know that I even cheered a guy who was against me, for being the only one that tried to give some arguments over his statements (even though I don't agree with them).

I think the only solution for that hate is if they make 40bb cap tables and everyone will be happy.

 

[fletchdad]

I saw the post you mean, and, yes, I found your tone and response here respectful. You response was a bit off base, IMO, as you mentioned he was the only one to give arguments about why they think SSing is bad. That was done in a number of other posts as well. The disrespect from other posts were to the ss's as a group, and not at you personally. But I will concede that the comments were harsh. BUT...............

SSers are seen by many in the poker community as the bottom feeders of the online poker world. You promote it. You need to get used to this kind of attitude from a majority of players.

You have a right to your opinion, and I guess your tone isnt any worse than some others. So all I can say is good luck.

 

[shawkid]

when I get on tilt I will sit at a couple micro tables with 40bb each. I play them for 15-20 minutes.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Notice how the only reason not to play a short stack is competence. If you're any sort of competent, you should be buying in max. Playing short says a lot about you. The guys in this video say it nicer than anyone can, and it still means the same thing.

 

[Keith_MM]

I don't know why noobs that doesn't know the difference between bumhunting and sitting to play anyone even try to write here. And I don't have push or fold charts, they are for <30bb poker.

well theres one of your offensive posts for a start.calling me a noob knowing nothing about me. You yourself said that you played HU and the games are now dead and no one will play if you sit and you can't wait all day for a fish to sit. At that stage where you were sitting and regs weren't playing you and you were waiting for someone to join you were bumhunting knowing that the regs weren't going to sit against you. it may have been a week or longer but while you were sat waiting for someone to sit with you you were still bumhunting , maybe not intentionally , but if you knew that the regs weren't going to sit with you then you were still bum hunting.

you want 40 bb tables. have you forgotten when stars introduced them pre black friday , fish flocked to them so regs followed the fish and the ranges were pretty much solved in no time at all just as 20bb poker was solved. Stars in the end scrapped the 40bb tables after about 6 months and you can guarantee they didn't do that because the 40bb tables were more profitable to them.

you want to know why 40bb ers are despised. do you play home games ? do you buy in short , shove flop and win a pot and then collect up your money and say see ya next week and immediately leave. you can be certain that you wouldn't be invited back. Theres "nothing wrong" with doing it but its incredibly rude to do it in a home game and disrespects all the other players sat at the table. Why should doing it online be any different?

40bbers exploit the fold equity they get vs full stackers as a fair % of full stackers hands that could call a 40bb shove in a 40bb game are no longer strong enough to call/shove with if there is a full stacker still to act behind them.

Your strategy only works because you can rathole. why have stars now introduced the buy in obligations to defeat ratholing if it is so ethical. ratholer disrespect the people they are playing with each time they rathole so why should ratholers be shown any respect?

 

[btc87]

Ok sorry if I offended you, but you started. When I was waiting at a hu table, I wasn't waiting only for fish, I was playing anyone that sits which is not what you call bumhunting.
Stars had 20-50bb tables which were a gold mine for me, but unfortunately they removed them.
When you play 100bb and get to 200-300bb, do you still sit at the table even if there is a good deepstacked player to your left? If you say no, I don't see how this is different than ratholing. If you say yes, fine, but still most of the other regs don't sit when they get deep. Everybody just has his comfortable stack size. If it was 40bb cap I'd never quit a table before the end of my session. I know that annoys some ppl that's why I think the solution is different table format.

 

[Jblocher1]

Ok sorry if I offended you, but you started. When I was waiting at a hu table, I wasn't waiting only for fish, I was playing anyone that sits which is not what you call bumhunting.
Stars had 20-50bb tables which were a gold mine for me, but unfortunately they removed them.
When you play 100bb and get to 200-300bb, do you still sit at the table even if there is a good deepstacked player to your left? If you say no, I don't see how this is different than ratholing. If you say yes, fine, but still most of the other regs don't sit when they get deep. Everybody just has his comfortable stack size. If it was 40bb cap I'd never quit a table before the end of my session. I know that annoys some ppl that's why I think the solution is different table format.

Good deep stack regs don't leave when they get deep. I leave the table when my edge is gone. If I find out that I no longer have a skill edge then I leave.... But how deep I am will not make me leave a table.

Let's say I have an aggro fish who keeps donating his money at my table. Every time he loses 100BB he tops back up to 100BB. I have taken 500BB from him. I have 600BB but he still only has 100 and he's still a fish. So why leave? The best thing to do is to learn how to play real competent 100+BB poker.

 

[BenjiHustle]

Good deep stack regs don't leave when they get deep. I leave the table when my edge is gone. If I find out that I no longer have a skill edge then I leave.... But how deep I am will not make me leave a table.

Let's say I have an aggro fish who keeps donating his money at my table. Every time he loses 100BB he tops back up to 100BB. I have taken 500BB from him. I have 600BB but he still only has 100 and he's still a fish. So why leave? The best thing to do is to learn how to play real competent 100+BB poker.

+1

I know of exactly zero players that start with a full stack and leave when it grows. I've been at a table with 600-700 bbs and couldn't have been happier. As my stack grows, so does my smile. Any thoughts on the fact that your lack of competence is the only real reason to buy in short?

 

[btc87]

So when I think I don't have edge and leave I'm a ratholer, but when you do the same you aren't?

I don't think I don't have an edge even with 1000bbs. The point is that I want to autopilot tons of tables without risking big stacks on each table. Playing deep is harder if you want a lot of tables. Respect to the players that play a lot of tables and dont stand when they get deep. We can't all be that good though.

 

[Jblocher1]

So when I think I don't have edge and leave I'm a ratholer, but when you do the same you aren't?

I don't think I don't have an edge even with 1000bbs. The point is that I want to autopilot tons of tables without risking big stacks on each table. Playing deep is harder if you want a lot of tables. Respect to the players that play a lot of tables and dont stand when they get deep. We can't all be that good though.

What people are saying ITT is that a short stack style automatically makes you a ratholer because once you double or hit 100BB you leave the table. You set that goal "once I hit this point I will leave" that is not the way any reg should ever think. Regs leave when they get outclassed and can't profit... Your style inherently contains the fact that you leave the table not when you are outclassed, but instead it's whenever u get the double up. You can take this style of play if you want.... But never ever will you be respected within this poker community or any other for that matter so long as you continue to short stack at tables.

You are on a forum of poker players who pretty much all play 100+BB poker.... Some who play deep stack specifically with 250+BB. You do yourself no favors by keeping this strategy in place. Why not use your time here on this forum, to read through threads about 100+BB poker. You will be a better player because of it, and you set yourself in a path to profit more long term. A wise duggs once said to me ( go to his thread it's a great place to learn deep stack poker) "we can spend our whole lives playing hands in a way which allow us to avoid awkward and hard spots.... But the best way to improve our game is to simply learn to handle those awkward and hard spots so no longer will they seem that way" (paraphrased). 100+BB poker is in fact more profitable than 40BB poker. So why don't you step out of your comfort zone and learn the art of truly playing real poker with deeper stacks? GL to you sir. The forum does provide ample support to aid in your game, I and many others would suggest you look into it.

 

[btc87]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I switched from 100bb+ to 40bb. I don't want respect, I play only for the money. When 40bb is more profitable to me than 100bb, there is no chance I go back to 100bb. If there are no other 40bb players here, there are forums only for us, so I have no more reasons to write here.

 

[Keith_MM]

Ok sorry if I offended you, but you started. When I was waiting at a hu table, I wasn't waiting only for fish, I was playing anyone that sits which is not what you call bumhunting.

when you knew that none of the regs were going to sit with you and that it would only be fish that sat down , you were then bum hunting . Otherwise why open a table instead of sitting all the other regs and forcing them to sit out or play you .

Stars had 20-50bb tables which were a gold mine for me, but unfortunately they removed them.

yeah that was over 3 years ago as it was before black friday.ANd why do you think stars shut those tables down?.

When you play 100bb and get to 200-300bb, do you still sit at the table even if there is a good deepstacked player to your left? If you say no, I don't see how this is different than ratholing. If you say yes, fine, but still most of the other regs don't sit when they get deep. Everybody just has his comfortable stack size. If it was 40bb cap I'd never quit a table before the end of my session. I know that annoys some ppl that's why I think the solution is different table format.

of course i still sit at the table.only time i leave a table is when its full of nits/tags or session is ending.I have no problem playing deep.

 

[BenjiHustle]

I don't think anyone who starts fully stacked leaves when they double up or anything. It just provides more cushion and mobility and the game becomes easier and easier as we get deeper and deeper. I think your idea that fully stacked players do this is a self-conceived notion.

 

[loafes]

If you want to auto pilot a profitable game well applying short stack strategy then play 6 Max hyper turbos. They're plenty profitable and full of fish plus you would be a useful part of the poker ecology rather than a drain on it. Seriously some of the guys playing those things are raking in the money.

 

[btc87]

Haha don't know why you advice me to play something else when I'm alraedy raking good money with 40bb.

ANd why do you think stars shut those tables down?.

I better not comment on your previous thought. About this one - they shut them down because of the 20bb players ruining the 40-50bb+ game. IT's the same case now, so they should make 40bb cap and let 100bb players play deep with everyone.

 

[Keith_MM]

its not rocket science , if most people are buying in at 40-50bb instead of 100bb+ then a lot of pots will end up with half the pot size and on the micro tables half the rake income as rake caps won't get hit. not a big deal for those playing 100nl+ tables as rake caps will still get hit and not affect stars income,it is a big deal for 50bb tables at 50nl and lower where two allins at 40bbs end up with a 40$ pot which isn't rake capped instead of a 80$ pot which is rake capped.stars get 2$ instead of 3$ of rake. multiply that up over millions of hands over the micro tables and its easy to see why stars pulled those tables.

 

[vinylspiros]

its not rocket science , if most people are buying in at 40-50bb instead of 100bb+ then a lot of pots will end up with half the pot size and on the micro tables half the rake income as rake caps won't get hit. not a big deal for those playing 100nl+ tables as rake caps will still get hit and not affect stars income,it is a big deal for 50bb tables at 50nl and lower where two allins at 40bbs end up with a 40$ pot which isn't rake capped instead of a 80$ pot which is rake capped.stars get 2$ instead of 3$ of rake. multiply that up over millions of hands over the micro tables and its easy to see why stars pulled those tables.

good point.

 

[btc87]

It would've been a good point if the 80bb and 160bb pots occured at the same frequency. Actually 80bb pots on average occur about twice as often as 160bb pots, 40bb pots about twice as often as 80bb pots etc. Stars are even losing money when the rake is capped because they can't take us more money, but it has nothing to do with the stack size. Would you say 20bb cap tables aren't as profitable for PS as the 100bb tables? Try both of the same level and check your rake.

 

[Keith_MM]

if they were as profitable , surely stars would have 20bb cap 10nl tables which is equivalent to 2nl in term of buyins or pot sizes and rake on them . lowest tables you can play 20bb cap poker on is 25nl. 25nl cap looks to be running ~20% players to the flop which is probably similar to the average at 5nl but far more tables are available allowing table selection to get a looser table.

 

[btc87]

if they were as profitable , surely stars would have 20bb cap 10nl tables which is equivalent to 2nl in term of buyins or pot sizes and rake on them . lowest tables you can play 20bb cap poker on is 25nl. 25nl cap looks to be running ~20% players to the flop which is probably similar to the average at 5nl but far more tables are available allowing table selection to get a looser table.

lol I thought you knew that the lower the level the higher the rake. Obviously stars didn't put 20bb 10nl tables because the rake would kill everybody, not that they wouldn't be profitable. And as you probably haven't played the 20bb tables, the rake there is a bit higher if you compare with the same 100bb level.