SB vs BB 3-bet Preflop

winneronline

winneronline

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So, our opponent is good tight aggresive 16/12/3. I d like comments on :
1) Was my first raise right? ( I guess so...)
2) What the hell am I doing now ? :p Should I put another raise and fold to a shove? Should I call and fold on flop overcards? Should I fold right now?

party poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $70.26
BB: $81.99
UTG: $57.59
MP: $68.30
CO: $59.90
BTN: $24.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt J
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J
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(6 Players)
3 folds, BTN calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.50, BB raises to $10.00, BTN folds, Hero ... ??
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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1. Good bet Pre-flop
2. You could re-raise here, but my guess by Villians re-raise on you that you would be throwing dead money into the pot.
If villian is your standard TAG here and he put outs a bet of 20xBB, then he is sure to have AA,KK.
But if you would like to better define villians hand, put out a re-raise and if he comes OTT, you are beat.
I would fold to such aggression preflop unless holding AA,KK.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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I hate these blind battles. You've played this fine pf but his 3-bet puts you in a dilemma, my guess here he's on a range of QQ+, AK. I certainly believe he makes this move with AK, so the question is do you pay to find out. I think all things considered I fold here, given his stats. Does anyone call and evaluate the flop?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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What's our table image (ie what's his range on us?)

If we're playing standard TAG poker, then he's got a pretty tight range. Probably something like what Jagsti noted. If we've been active, he could be 3-betting lighter since our range would be bigger.
 
joosebuck

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have we been raising his bb much thus far? have we been winning hands with or without showdowns lately?
 
J

joeeagles

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I really hate getting reraised with JJ, and you're also OOP in this hand.

Jagsti's range for a TAG (seems that's what villain is) looks to be right to me. Although what Chuck says about our image is important to determine our next move, even if we've been LAG I'm not sure against this type of opponent I'd be willing to take chances and throw in a 4bet.

4-betting here doesn't look like a sound choice. In order to be effective we would need to pop it to 25/30 and this route doesn't make much sense if we're planning to fold to a shove because anyone of those hands in Jagsti's range would likely do so, including AK which we are ahead of. Also, it seems a huge price to pay for simple info. So, if the idea is to fold to a shove then we shouldn't 4bet cause there is a very high chance that happens even from the hand(s) we beat PF.

That leaves it to either call or fold. I don't think any of these 2 is terrible but I'd fold vs a TAG, because if you miss the flop you know a c-bet is coming even on a rag flop with no overcards and you'll face a tough decision, and leading out on such a flop has us in the dark if he flat calls. If you're up against AA, KK or QQ and you hit a set you'll likely get all his chips and stacks are deep enough I think even to just try this for set value so the call isn't terrible, although I realize it sounds absurd to play JJ for set value.

This is a really tough spot, and arguments can be made for going in just about any direction. The one that I'm fully opposed to is the 4bet, I just don't like it, but anything else either than that I believe is acceptable. It's very hard to determine which way is the best.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Like Chuck and joose ask, it smells like there's a reason he's making this play.

It's not like he doesn't know how to make an initial raise so unless he sees you as LAG, a blind restealer, or a TAG he can push off hands it's an odd play. Unless he's decided to slowplay AA/KK and limped just because only the blinds are left.

Calling here and seeing the flop is scary, with JJ I like to be the last to raise preflop because there's too many overcards.
 
winneronline

winneronline

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I m classic TAG here. Nothing extreme happened in this table. I won 1-2 showdowns but against bad opponents. I didn't try anything crazy from the blinds. I Raised when I had a hand, I folded when I didn't.
 
the clêaner

the clêaner

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Against this type of player it`s an easy fold. An overcard will fold 60% of the time, and even on a ragged flop what are you gonna do ? Call another 18$ to find out if he has AK on the turn? JJ=22 here. Besides, Button might come over the top, since He`s only a medium stack. If you call for set value you have to be 100% sure that he is gonna stack of all the time, and that`s not the case, since he will not with AK.
 
J

joeeagles

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Against this type of player it`s an easy fold. If you call for set value you have to be 100% sure that he is gonna stack of all the time, and that`s not the case, since he will not with AK.


AK is only one hand in his range, and on a J high flop he'll stack with AA, KK or QQ almost every time, given the size this pot will be after his c-bet, which will come for sure.

That said I don't disagree with your opinion of folding, especially in light of what OP is saying about villain's image and what he now adds about his own image (tight). This could still be AK, and occasionally 99/TT given that table is 6-handed. I just think its too expensive to find out if it is one of those hands and it remains more likely to me that's its a big pocket.
 
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