Overpairs

Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Probably a pretty common situation, but is there a standard play here? Stick in all your chips and hope they don't have a set, or fold and hope for less resistance next time?

Table #128410 - Scarborough
Starting Hand #8229530
Last Hand #8229499
Game Type: Hold'em
Limit Type: No Limit
Table Type: Ring
Money Type: real money
Blinds are now $0.05/$0.10
Button is at seat 1
Seat 1: bawgazza - $11.88
Seat 2: awesum - $16.87
Seat 3: Cubra - $3.70
Seat 5: Bombjack - $12.48
Seat 6: mrrpb - $0 (away from table)
Seat 7: stirfry - $10.33
Seat 8: tachyonist - $11.58
Seat 9: dipster - $16.68
Seat 10: MrMarimba - $16.61
Moving Button to seat 2
Cubra posts small blind ($0.05)
Bombjack posts big blind ($0.10)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing Q♣ Q♠ to Bombjack
stirfry calls $0.10
tachyonist calls $0.10
dipster calls $0.10
awesum: its fun
MrMarimba folds
bawgazza calls $0.10
awesum calls $0.10
Cubra folds
Bombjack raises to $0.90
stirfry folds
tachyonist folds
dipster folds
bawgazza calls $0.90
awesum calls $0.90
Dealing Flop 6♦ 4♦ 8♣
Bombjack bets $1.50
bawgazza: still suited or not its not much diffreant
bawgazza raises to $6
awesum folds
Bombjack...
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
It's very low limits so players there will call raises with anything. That being said, I think your beat. I would fold.
 
Effexor

Effexor

Cardschat Elite
I think that bawgazza sees your weak 1/2 pot bet as you holding 2 overs and is trying to steal the pot, maybe with a flush draw, maybe with A8 trying to push you off of a flush draw. Why didn't you bet the pot here? Do you have any reads on these people? Have they called big PF raises with junk before?

I don't see laying this one down, this is as close to an ideal flop for big PP as you can get.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Not really much in terms of reads - PokerTracker makes me lazy in this department and unfortunately it doesn't support PKR!
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

Visionary
I don't like the flop bet. I think it needs to be bigger, maybe 2/3rds to pot sized, especially at this level. He probably has overs though but I think a call is good here.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

Charcoal Mellowed
I think betting 2/3 - 3/4 of the pot on the flop would be good here. Pot sized bet might be too much, IMO. He may have you on a flush draw and see 1/2 pot here as a c-bet. I think he may have over cards or an over pair, but I'd venture a guess it isn't AA, KK, or QQ. If he is suited, I don't think it is diamonds. Don't see a set here either. Don't completely know why. Maybe it is the way I read the post. I say he is a fish on a gut shot straight draw, worried you are on the flush draw, and trying to scare you out of the pot. Push.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
I think he has A8/77/99-JJ, though of course a set is a possibility. Your flop bet was very weak considering the size of your PF raise, and I think he's just trying to take the pot down thinking that his smaller pair is good against your AK or AQ (or so he thinks). I push here, and see what the monkey's got.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
A few comments saying the flop bet should be bigger... my thinking: if you bet a different amount for your continutation bets and when you actually have an overpair, isn't it completely obvious what you're doing? (Or maybe my normal continuation bets are too small... HoH recommends half the pot though.) If someone interprets a half-pot bet as a continuation bet and calls / raises with something less than what you have, isn't that a good thing? Wheras if I bet the pot, it may get rid of anyone on a draw or with just over cards, but I don't get much value for the hand. And if someone's got a 2 pair or a set already, a bigger bet isn't going to put them off.

Maybe I should be betting a bit bigger with Queens rather than Kings or Aces, as there's more chance of being outdrawn by overcards on the turn or river.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
if you bet a different amount for your continutation bets and when you actually have an overpair, isn't it completely obvious what you're doing?

Good point, but you have to keep in mind what happened preflop. If it's folded to you, and you make a 3-4BB raise, then a half-pot C-bet is fine (even with an overpair). If someone were to make that bet before you, and you're holding queens and make a reraise, you're stating that you have a very good hand, and your C-bet shouldn't be half the pot. You should be betting more considering that you've stated that you have a better than average (and better than a 1/2-pot bet) hand. In your example here, you've bet a huge amount preflop (9BBs) with a bunch of limpers in front of you.

You've stated that you have a very good hand, and your C-bet should be proportional to that. It looks strange when someone raises that much, and then bets a tiny (in comparison) amount on the flop; he's probably thinking you have AK or two other high cards, and maybe thinks his 8s or Ts or whatever are good.
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

Visionary
Your opening post is about indescision about what to do next. I think that indecision is the result of the size of the flop bet. If you bet the pot on the flop and he folds, is that a problem? I understand you want to get more cash out of it but at what cost to you? Instead you bet out weakly (IMO) and are now on the back foot in a hand you should be commanding. Unless you know him to be an aggressive player and are trapping with the queens, which I don't see as your plan, you are left guessing about a possible set.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
OK, say I bet 2/3 of the pot like you suggest rather than 1/2 (a pretty subtle distinction really?) and he raises - what do you do then?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
OK, say I bet 2/3 of the pot like you suggest rather than 1/2 (a pretty subtle distinction really?) and he raises - what do you do then?

I'd bet about 2 or 2.50 on the flop, and if he's still raising me then I'll consider folding my hand. I've shown serious strength up to this point, and he's stating with his bet that he's got me beat. My reasoning would that he called 88 or maybe 66 PF, and therefore has a set. Though we ARE at .05/.10, and just about anybody at that level will stack off for top pair, even if it is an 8.

Considering what you actually did, I'm pushing here. I myself will occasionally make a raise like this against an opponent that's showing weakness just to see If I can win the pot right there. With something like AKd in this situation, I'm raising and I'm raising big, and who knows, he might be making a raise with 77 or something like that here.
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

Visionary
If he's LAGgy I'm pushing. What is the point of a bigger Flop bet then you might ask? Good question. This comes down to more table dynamics. Are you respected at the table? What's his range? Like Chuck said .5/.10 tables could see A/8 make this play. 9's and 10's may also do this trying to avoid seeing an overcard hit on the turn.

If he's TAG I consider a fold. I've shown strength and so has he. Here I guess the bigger flop bet will define things for you.

Also, are you happy folding now confident in the fact that you'll make money at this table? If you think you're ahead of this game then maybe you'll lay this down and outplay the table later.

Good post though, got me thinking.
 
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