No Limit Full ring. KK hands when do we fold pre-flop ?

tenbob

tenbob

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Lets not say never. Im gonna recommend ALWAYS felting KK preflop at nl$25 and below before anyone starts getting fancy. Once we go above this though, can we really say that against a reg or even a semi reg, that we are going to be against AK or QQ enough times to make this profitable. Im starting to thing its a bad idea for full (100BB>) stacks.

To deter the guys that say NEVER FOLD KK, it's a cooler to run into AA. Lets have a look at some situations. In all 5 situations we are facing an overbet for stacks.

1) Effective stacks are <30 BB, we ALWAYS play
2) Effective stacks are <70 BB, we ALWAYS play
3) Effective stacks are 70-100 BB, we USUALLY play
4) Effective stacks are 100-150BB, we USUALLY play.
5) Effective stacks are 150bb+, we NEVER play.

This has been playing on my mind lots and lots. Looking at my KK hands (ill post some tomorrow) Ive got a feeling that we need to reach a stack size vs a standard TAG where we decide to fold this hand pre-flop. At what situation DO YOU as a good TAG decide to stop playing QQ/AK for stacks ? 50BB ? 100BB? Can we really think that the other players out there start felting QQ/JJ deeper, especially prooven long term winning players.

Im on the verge of a move up to nl$200, and this is one of these situations that I need to resolve before I do it. Almost every single time over the last few weeks, observing pre-flop play for full stacks its been AA vs KK (between regs), almost never KKvsQQ, simply because the majority of full ring players simply wont play QQ/JJ preflop for stacks, Its something I dont do either.

Opnions ?

The edge we gain from getting this right is insane IMO
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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/me attempts to offer advice way outside the realms of the limits he plays at, to players who probably already know what he's going to say.

I wouldn't say never stack with KK. As with any poker situation, it depends on a lot of factors. I think this depends especially on position, and namely who made the 3-bet preflop.

If we're doing the 3-betting preflop, and we get 4-bet into, then I think we can get away from this hand (correctly) a lot more often.

If we're facing a 3-bet from an opponent, then 4-betting preflop will often put us in a situation where we'll have to lay down KK with a large chunk of our $ in preflop (or we'll be priced into calling).

So while I don't have an answer in relation to effective stack size, I do have an answer as to how to avoid stacking off with KK.

Do a lot of 3-betting, but less 4-betting. The 3-bet is usually the last bet before the stacks go in, unless you're really deep. So if you want to avoid situations where you play for stacks preflop, then do more calling of villain's 3-bets. Don't escalate the action to a level where there will be so much in the pot, that even if our villain's range is only 20% QQ & AK, it will become profitable to call rather than fold.

Not 4-betting as much also has the added benefit of being able to trap more QQ & AK type hands into giving you more money on the flop. It will also increase the amount of times you're bluffed off of an Ace flop as well, but the sword does have 2 edges.

If you're 150+ BB's deep, then yes, you have room to re-re-raise villains for 35BB's or so. Then if they shove their 150 BB's in the middle, you can feel pretty sure their range is very small. But for most situations, if you want to avoid stacking off with KK, then I think the first step is limiting your preflop play to 3-bets in many situations without strong reads.
 
Munchrs

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Does PT3 allow you to analyze players all-in p/f ranges?
 
Jagsti

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As you have pointed out Bob to lay KK down to a good reg TAG pf is certainly something to consider, I'm sure most of us would have notes on a decent reg whether their prepared to felt anything less that KK. FWIW, the 2 hands I throw away at 50nl to major 4-bets now are QQ and AK (AK is the hand of the devil and should be folded pf imo :D ).

The one point I'm interested in from you is this. As you go up the limits, I have read ( On a rival forum ) that LAG is the only way to make the higher limits pay. I'm not entirely sure this is correct, but if we assume this, then the solid regs will be 3 and 4 betting a lot lighter maybe. Something I'm sure you will be able to judge as you move up, whether this includes 200nl I dunno.

Also it easier said than done, in the heat of battle, multi tabling, letting go of a monster hand pf takes some discipline. If only I could do it with AK ;). BTw 150bb's+ with KK I'm deffo thinking fold pf to 4 bet all in.
 
B

bw07507

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Interesting thread, Im just curious what your thoughts are on 6max tables. Do you stack KK no matter what if this is 6max?? I have heard a few good players say you should be getting all in pretty much no matter what with AA, KK, QQ, AK at 6max.
 
Jagsti

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I play 6max a lot and from what I've read on other forums, most solid regs will get it all in pf with AA,KK and AK. Not sure about QQ, I will lay this down pf to most nits, as for AK well I'm pretty results orientated and whenever I get it all in with AK pf it usually ends in tears. I have therefore fold this to mega aggro.
 
B

bw07507

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Im currently playing 10NL 6max so I am fine getting it all in with AA, KK, AK and QQ almost every time unless I have a strong read on an opponent as a nit. I am actually fine getting all in with even less at this limit if I think my opponent is a total fish/ultra loose aggro (Ive seen people get it AI preflop after 4 bets with as bad as 44 and K10). The other day I was playing against someone who was 80/35/18 over a 100 hand sample. Took his stack a couple of times.
 
V

viking999

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I've been playing a lot of $200 NL and stacked off for 100BB with KK against AA recently. The vicinity of 100BB is about the highest I will go. That one was kind of unavoidable, because his raise was a late position steal type raise, and my reraise looked like a SB resteal.

I folded KK preflop at $200NL once before when I had 200BB in front of me and he had me covered. So I would say the rule of "NEVER PLAY" at 200BB is pretty reasonable. This is only at the online $1/$2 games I'm used to, though. At the $1/$2 casino games I play at, the players are so loose and the raises so oversized, that I'd say you don't get to the "NEVER PLAY" point until about 300BB.

I disagree with not 4-betting often with KK. You're going to be 3-bet by AK a lot (even though you've taken up two kings, AK is still 33% more likely than any pair). And AK is not in very bad shape versus KK. I think it's a mistake not to charge the AK more to see that flop.
 
C

Czech Razor

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The deeper the stacks, the more outplaying your opponent after the flop becomes necessary in order to succeed so I don't mind releasing KK if someone with 200+ BBs shoves on me. I feel like I can outplay the majority of my opponents at 3-6 NL and lower so I'm not about to get coolered like that after amassing a good sized stack.

As a general rule of thumb your rules of when to play based on stack size are correct and obviously you'll run into situations at times where those rules need to get thrown out the window.
 
B

bumbling_ass

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Calulations

Hey all, I posted a thread here that gives a possible solution using pot equity calculations based on tenbob's post- It's kind of long, so I just made it into a separate thread. Let me know what you think-

B
 
SavagePenguin

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I know what you mean about not stacking of with Q/Q. Awhile back I observed this hand and it confused me:
pokerstars Game #12043837537: Hold'em No Limit ($100/$200) - 2007/09/13 - 21:47:11 (ET)
Table 'Subra' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: $tinger 88 ($20000 in chips)
Seat 3: KidPoker ($35182 in chips)
Seat 5: Empire2000 ($22564 in chips)
Seat 7: p3achy_keen ($32970 in chips)
Seat 9: ADZ124 ($22100 in chips)
Empire2000: posts small blind $100
p3achy_keen: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
ADZ124: folds
$tinger 88: raises $400 to $600
KidPoker: raises $1400 to $2000
Empire2000: raises $4400 to $6400
p3achy_keen: folds
$tinger 88: raises $13600 to $20000 and is all-in
1.jpg

KidPoker said, "??????????????"
KidPoker: folds
Empire2000: calls $13600
*** FLOP *** [Ah 2s 4d]
*** TURN *** [Ah 2s 4d] A♠
*** RIVER *** [Ah 2s 4d As] 2♣
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Empire2000: shows [Jc Jh] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
$tinger 88: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
$tinger 88 collected $42195 from pot
2.jpg




And a bit later there was another pre-flop shove with Q/Q:
PokerStars Game #12044291481: Hold'em No Limit ($100/$200) - 2007/09/13 - 22:12:18 (ET)
Table 'Subra' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: $tinger 88 ($26190 in chips)
Seat 3: KidPoker ($42669 in chips)
Seat 5: Empire2000 ($23639 in chips)
Seat 7: p3achy_keen ($36356 in chips)
Empire2000: posts small blind $100
p3achy_keen: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
$tinger 88: raises $400 to $600
KidPoker: raises $1400 to $2000
Empire2000: raises $4400 to $6400
p3achy_keen: folds
$tinger 88: folds
KidPoker: raises $36269 to $42669 and is all-in
Empire2000: calls $17239 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [6d Td 8h]
*** TURN *** [6d Td 8h] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [6d Td 8h 5c] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Empire2000: shows [Kd Ah] (high card Ace)
KidPoker: shows [Qc Qs] (a pair of Queens)
KidPoker collected $48073 from pot
KidPoker said, "phew"
 
Last edited:
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