nl2/4. strange turn/river line

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tufat23

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Hey, I assume none of you know me, but im a reg poster on other poker sites and a guest pro on cardrunners. At the request of a friend, I'm gonna start posting on here a bit.


Villain is a 17/14/3.4 reg over 1.5k hands or so. No real reads as we haven't tangled at all, but I've been rather active and have a pretty LAG image

party poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $305.50
BB: $391.20
Hero (UTG): $620.65
CO: $400.00
BTN: $802.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt
Jh.gif
Qh.gif
(5 Players)
Hero raises to $16.00, CO calls $16.00, 3 folds

Flop: ($38)
Kd.gif
Jc.gif
6h.gif
(2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $27.00, Hero calls $27.00

Turn: ($92)
Ks.gif
(2 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($92)
5h.gif
(2 Players)
Hero bets $60.00, CO raises to $199.00, Hero...







I'm most curious to get your opinions on:

1. Do you like the flop line? if not what would you do instead and why?
2. Is the turn an autocheck? what would be the reasons to bet again?
3. River is a clear valuebet, but what range can he have for a raise?
4, because of his raising range in 3, whats your calling range?
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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hey tufat, good to have you here. i've watched your vids before i'm pretty sure, cool to see you posting here on cc. i dont play much 6max, i usually frequent 200nlhe full ring - but ill give it a go.

1. 3.4 is pretty aggressive for full ring, i'm gonna assume it's still pretty aggressive even for 6max. does he know that you're usually LAG? if so, i dont know how much i like floating here, as some LAGs telegraph stronger hands by slowing too much when they hit hard. assuming he thinks you wont do that and is betting out, i dont mind floating this flop. we have 2 backdoor draws that account for a nice chunk of equity. the turn card can change things a lot. not to mention when he smooth calls with JT/TT-77 and bets out with us still ahead.

2. not necessarily. we want value out of weaker jacks and the mid pairs, but we didnt pick up any sort of draw (heart/straight) so we lose a ton of outs. i like the check/call because if i'm right and 3.4AF is still pretty aggro even for 6max, we get a lot of value from the hands we're ahead of that he's betting with that would fold if we bet out. we bet here to get value from hands that would call that might check behind (TT/JT).

3. any king, but with your lag image he might be raising exceedingly light, making a play.

4. my calling range is probably JT+ if we for sure know that he knows our image

but then again im prolly very wrong.
 
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evny

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i think it's hard to think that a TAG has a K there

his flop bet means just about nothing, could just be a stab since you checked.
i like the flop line - i think worse hands pay you there that would easily fold to a cb.... i.e. most pairs are gonna fold on a KJ flop but will take a stab if given the chance

i don't see him sitting there w a K, bc oftentimes a weaker king checks behind there trying to get to SD, a tag doesn't typically coldcall w weak suited kings, etc

also, i feel like he would be betting that turn w any king... why excercise pot control when u have such a strong hand there?... i could see a weak king mebbe just checking there, but like i said already he's highly unlikely he's holding K2s

JJ is possible, but unlikely due to you holding one of the J's, and once again turn action... 66 also

i just don't see any flopped sets slowplaying on that turn bc your flop action pretty much defines your hand as a medium strength hand, which i think plenty of medium kings fall into also... so if he did have a boat on turn he would want to get value

so... by the time he raises that river... i think best chances are either 55, or a tricky bet. is he that good that he can raise your river VB as a bluff seeing that you probably have a middle strength hand?

well.. that's my long and convoluted opinion... i'd be glad to hear what other people think
 
tenbob

tenbob

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These are the hands that constantly get me into trouble playing $100FR. You have a medium strength hand, not one good enough to be playing a massive pot with, yet thats what just happened. I gotta give him a lot of respect for a decent hand here, it looks like he flopped a king bet it, got called, his hand improves drastically on the turn, and he decides to let you catch up a bit to take you to value town on the river. Your river lead is fine though.

I think this is a river fold, you beating feck all here, most of his possible holdings are beating you, im a little tighter than Joose, my calling range here is the same as my raisng range, most tags dont make river plays with this on these sort of boards with a Jack or 10's<.

Tricky hand, and certainly one that if I was put to an on the spot decision i'd likely make the crying all.
 
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alan1983

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Im leaning towards fold here too.

If he has a jack or pocket pair, why would he check turn then raise river.

What hands does he expect to call him here that he wouldnt bet turn against.

To me he more likely has nothing than a medium pocket pair, but i think he has a stronger hand here, king or qq.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Without going over what everyone else has said, I would like to have seen you bet when u hit your Jack. Or check and reraise. I don`t think the flat call after he bets tells u anything.

I fold - he must have A set or FH (pocket J`s?)
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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i dunno. he could easily be value raising thinking "he cant call without a king"
 
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alan1983

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But if hes value raising thinking we cant call without king, why would he value raise a hand that he thinks would only get called by something he has beat.

I think it could be a total bluff, but i think a medium strength hand that goes for pot control on turn wouldnt want to get in trouble on river.

I think its either very weak or a king
 
tenbob

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Well if you think that hes very capable of this level of thinking, and hes been caught in this spot playing with air before then its a clear call, and you callng range should widen up substantially . I still think his line is a king though.
 
blankoblanco

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Well, he's raising bluffs, Kx although possibly not every Kx, fullhouses, I guess that's clear enough. I'm not sure of the minimum K he'd likely raise here. If he had K5, for example (incredibly unlikely he'd have called preflop, but purely as an extreme example), I don't know if he'd raise and expect you to call with worse

People have covered a lot of the things I'm thinking, but I will add that I've played a big K or FH this way a number of times before, so I wouldn't be quick to think he's bluffing. Also your line does nothing to suggest to him you can't have a K. Thus I don't think it's as great a bluffing spot for him as it might look. That said I'd fold
 
dbitel

dbitel

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hey andy (tufat),

although I've given you thoughts over MSN, I thought I'd post them here as well:

The benefits of this flop line are obvious. It gets value from bluffs, we get floated off our hand rarer, if we just lead the flop, we rarely get called by worse (that doesnt end up bluffing us off our hand anyway). It does obv forse you to call down pretty blind in some situations, but to be honest, this guy isn't calling you preflop with too many kings anyway (only really KQ, and even that he might 3bet or fold sometimes) so its pretty damn likely we're ahead.

On the turn, I think checking is standard. When he checks too, his hand is mostly hands that have given up, obv...the odd time i guess its a boat/king.

On the river, as I've told you, I'm not the biggest fan of your lead...unless its with the intention of inducing a bluff. As a value bet on its own, I think it has very little to no value. The problem is, your hand looks like exactly what it is. What other hands are you c/c the flop with that you are vbing here? And you cant really even be bluffing with QT, just because you will very rarely if ever c/c the flop with QT (I presume you will cbet it there). So if you're betting this river with the sole purpose of inducing a bluff, I think the biggest problem with that is that you cannot count on a standard 400nl TAG to be capable of bluff raising rivers, or to do it often enough. As a result, I prefer checking and prob calling the river.

Given that you HAVE led the river, I think you HAVE to call his raise. He can't really have many legit hands. Possibly a KQ/66 that got really tricky, or I guess also 55 makes sense. But b/c you're repping exactly waht you have, and villain knows you can't really call a raise with it, I would call here.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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dan,

You're a far better ring game player than I, but I don't understand why he has to be repping exactly what he has. Is it "bad" per se for hero to take this line with KQ-KT a decent chunk of the time on a board this dry?
 
tenbob

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Given that you HAVE led the river, I think you HAVE to call his raise. He can't really have many legit hands. Possibly a KQ/66 that got really tricky, or I guess also 55 makes sense. But b/c you're repping exactly waht you have, and villain knows you can't really call a raise with it, I would call here.

Im having huge difficulty with this hand, its wreaking my head at the moment tbh. Right the pot is $350 and you have to call a $120 bet to win it. So the villian need to be playing air once in 3 to make this a profitable call, but its not that simple, because we are now playing a massive pot with a hand that has turned into a piece of crap. We could be playing an overpair poorly for all he cares. Our thinking is he thinks you cant call without a king so he raises , so we call, because we know that ?

If this is a FR hand does your opnion change at all ? How about if this is a shorthanded nl$50 hand instead of $400 ?
 
ChuckTs

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Most of your questions are answered already, but I'll put my 2c in anyways.

I'm most curious to get your opinions on:

1. Do you like the flop line? if not what would you do instead and why?
2. Is the turn an autocheck? what would be the reasons to bet again?
3. River is a clear valuebet, but what range can he have for a raise?
4, because of his raising range in 3, whats your calling range?


1) Most big kings (and other bigger hands) are reraising or folding PF, so I do like your line on the flop. It's kind of WA/WB - we're only scaring off worse hands with a c-bet, and giving money to better ones. We're also inviting some bluffs in.

2) Well I don't like betting for the same reasons as 1). We're giving money to better hands (aj/kx/FH/etc), and we're only scaring off bluff attempts and underpairs. I'm not really afraid of getting outdrawn here as any ace worth calling PF isn't taking this line, and AQ/AT are probably reraising PF, so I prefer checking.

3) Why is it a clear valuebet? Do underpairs really call this river? Are we even going to see smaller jacks (ie do they call PF)?

As for his reraising range, it could be Kx, 66 or 55, but they're all fairly unlikely. I think your line looks pretty odd to him and he's probably trying to bluff you off of a smaller pair or some busted draw or something. Basically bluff>66/55>Jx>Kx. I'd be most scared of the small set turned FH because of his PF line fitting it perfectly.

And welcome to the site, tufat. Nice to get some insight into 400nl; we don't have many regulars above 200nl. Hope to see some more posts from you in the future.
 
dbitel

dbitel

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dan,

You're a far better ring game player than I, but I don't understand why he has to be repping exactly what he has. Is it "bad" per se for hero to take this line with KQ-KT a decent chunk of the time on a board this dry?

sure, thats a possibility (and another reason why I dislike the river lead) but in general, villain will EXPECT us to lead teh flop with top pair. It doesn't really matter if we do or don't, he thinks that we will mostly
 
dbitel

dbitel

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Im having huge difficulty with this hand, its wreaking my head at the moment tbh. Right the pot is $350 and you have to call a $120 bet to win it. So the villian need to be playing air once in 3 to make this a profitable call, but its not that simple, because we are now playing a massive pot with a hand that has turned into a piece of crap. We could be playing an overpair poorly for all he cares. Our thinking is he thinks you cant call without a king so he raises , so we call, because we know that ?

If this is a FR hand does your opnion change at all ? How about if this is a shorthanded nl$50 hand instead of $400 ?

The thing is, in a way, it IS that simple, we just need to be ahead 1 time in 3 or so. It doesnt really matter that what we have in essence is a mid pair hand and we're playing a HUGE pot with it....you have to get that out your mind and just think in terms of EV and the most profitable move at each step on the hand.

My thinking is indeed that he thinks we cant call without a king AND we rarely have one here, and that is why he has air at least 1 in 3 times

at full ring, I think its even LESS likely that he would have a king himself, however, its slightly more likely he has a set and so a FH and also, I find that at full ring, players are less likely to make moves
 
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evny

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now that i read the hand over, i'm not too sure that the river is a clear valuebet - what hands call there?... are you counting on a pair < JJ calling 2 sts?... or JT?... are you missing that much value if you check meaning to call and he checks behind?
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Do we not sometimes all kill ourselves by second guessing???

I know I`m not as experienced as some of you guys and definatly not playing ring games, but for interest I have put my thought process down. They are very basic and coments would be appreciated.
Hey, I assume none of you know me, but im a reg poster on other poker sites and a guest pro on cardrunners. At the request of a friend, I'm gonna start posting on here a bit.


Villain is a 17/14/3.4 reg over 1.5k hands or so. No real reads as we haven't tangled at all, but I've been rather active and have a pretty LAG image

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $305.50
BB: $391.20
Hero (UTG): $620.65
CO: $400.00
BTN: $802.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt
Jh.gif
Qh.gif
(5 Players)
Hero raises to $16.00, CO calls $16.00, 3 folds I might have limped but I probably would have lead out so I`m agreeing here.

Flop: ($38)
Kd.gif
Jc.gif
6h.gif
(2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $27.00, Hero calls $27.00 I would have bet here, definatly. I have middle pair and there is a K showing? Without knowing too much about the guy, what would he have called my preflop raise with that makes him flat call here??? Kx/ KJ/ KQ/ 66/ AA/ KK/ QQ/ JJ - the list goes on IMO because we did not lead out. If he has a K, what outs do I have? Few that will guarentee we have the best hand.

Turn: ($92)
Ks.gif
(2 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks This would worry me!!! Either he thinks we have a K so he is slowing up or he has a K/ FH and he is slow playing.
River: ($92)
5h.gif
(2 Players)
Hero bets $60.00, CO raises to $199.00, Hero... The raise here tells me I`m beaten - obviously IMO :) . I go back to the turn - he must have one of the holdings I suggested.

However, if he is a very LAG player, why are we 1) Not leading out on the flop to get a better feeling as to where we stand and 2) betting 2/3rds of the pot on the river when we know that most people will only reraise when they have us beat (most of the time)
I feel that a bet of 1/4 of the pot would have worried him more - if he did not have a K. It would have looked like we wanted a call.

Having said all of this I do appreciate that a lot of you guys will probably know better than I do ;)

I would love to hear your comments good and bad!!!

I'm most curious to get your opinions on:

1. Do you like the flop line? if not what would you do instead and why?
2. Is the turn an autocheck? what would be the reasons to bet again?
3. River is a clear valuebet, but what range can he have for a raise?
4, because of his raising range in 3, whats your calling range?
 
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tufat23

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ronaldadio. theres a tonne wrong with ure analysis (sorry to be harsh)

preflop. limping is bad. trying to implement a limping range along side the normal raising range is redic hard, and even worse when its 6-max or less.


flop: if u give him this kinda of a range preflop, wtf at betting? u know ure now just bluffing and praying. not saying i wont bet the flop, a lot of the time i will

turn: actually this is a pretty awesome card. reduces the chances of him having a K, and his check behind is weakness for sure, not strength. slowplaying shorthanded is really bad, and your better off having a crazy aggro image than a passive one.
if he checks the turn and bets river, he only gets one bet. if he bets river and i call, lol i'd have caleld the turn anyway so he'd have more opportunity to get more money in.

river: his raise really makes no sense. hes 17/14/3.4 so he plays tight but aggro. very unlikely for him to have Kx here since his preflop calling range is rather narrow, KQo, KQs, KJs... KTs maybe. the only way he takes this line with these hands is if he thinks im gonna bluff the river, which he doesnt really have too much indication that i will.

results:
i called and won, this hand was in my latest CR vid that went up on wednesday
 
stormswa

stormswa

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tufat I watched this video so really cant comment on hand since I have listened to your analysis already.


this video was great because the Villian called him all sorts of things after the hand, donkey, donkey, donkey. :)
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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ronaldadio. theres a tonne wrong with ure analysis (sorry to be harsh) No prob, I`m here to learn ;)

preflop. limping is bad. trying to implement a limping range along side the normal raising range is redic hard, and even worse when its 6-max or less. I did say I `might` have limped but probably would have bet, so I agree :confused:


flop: if u give him this kinda of a range preflop, wtf at betting? u know ure now just bluffing and praying. not saying i wont bet the flop, a lot of the time i will Accepting the fact I was commenting on the fact that I feel we `sometimes` spend more time trying to second guess. What I`m saying is that he calls your raise, therefore, normaly, they have something.

turn: actually this is a pretty awesome card. reduces the chances of him having a K, and his check behind is weakness for sure, not strength. slowplaying shorthanded is really bad, and your better off having a crazy aggro image than a passive one. Please read what I said "This would worry me!!! Either he thinks we have a K so he is slowing up or he has a K/ FH and he is slow playing." In my opinion, the fact u slowed up would suggest he is thinking the same about u. Surely if someone has a pocket pair, draw, etc, they would have bet at this stage?
U said the check behind u in your opinion showed weakness - why would it not say the same to him about u?

if he checks the turn and bets river, he only gets one bet. if he bets river and i call, lol i'd have caleld the turn anyway so he'd have more opportunity to get more money in.

river: his raise really makes no sense. hes 17/14/3.4 so he plays tight but aggro. very unlikely for him to have Kx here since his preflop calling range is rather narrow, KQo, KQs, KJs... KTs maybe. the only way he takes this line with these hands is if he thinks im gonna bluff the river, which he doesnt really have too much indication that i will. This is where the LAG image for the other guy would have worked on me :) . The bet looks like the only way he will win the bet is by putting in a massive raise, however, against an inexperienced player like me, I would have folded, because of the reasons I have said.

results:
i called and won, this hand was in my latest CR vid that went up on wednesday
U made a great call and won the bet - perhaps this should have been in the `brags and beats` section :p

The whole hand probably shows the difference between a MTT player and a ring game player `if u r broke u r beat` v `if u r broke u can stack up again` ?
 
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alan1983

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What did villain have?

A j or pocket pair or air?
 
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