NL$100 KK play, whats our line for the rest of the hand.

[dj11]

WA/WB here I bet $6.00 (2/3 pot).

Villains check is either a slow play trap, or a total miss, and you have to find out which. I would expect that normally you take the pot down right then, but you mentioned you had been on an epic rush, which for sure is gonna be pissing him off and he could call with even a big stretch, like a gutshot str8 draw, or the lesser pair.

His check could be a mistake on his part though. He knows that your 'rusyh' could have been all air, since none reached showdown, and fyi, I would see that as big time LAGGY with little to no TAG in it. He should be aware that his check suggests he has no ACE.

I like my $6 buck bet here.

 

[tenbob]

pokerstars GAME #13589862294: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/12/01 - 18:43:56 (ET)
Table 'Rutllant II' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: ranka666 ($135.95 in chips)
Seat 2: edthekat ($124.55 in chips)
Seat 3: mufahula ($84.65 in chips)
Seat 4: Richy10 ($101.20 in chips)
Seat 5: JareBehr ($115.75 in chips)
Seat 6: Zaphod417 ($77.35 in chips)
Seat 7: lies5317 ($103.75 in chips)
Seat 8: tenbob ($126.50 in chips)
Seat 9: djones148 ($16.10 in chips)
JareBehr: posts small blind $0.50
Zaphod417: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [Ks Kc]
lies5317: folds
tenbob: raises $3 to $4
djones148: folds
ranka666: folds
edthekat: folds
mufahula: folds
Richy10: folds
JareBehr: calls $3.50
Zaphod417: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5c Ah]
JareBehr: checks
tenbob: checks
*** TURN *** [7d 5c Ah] [2c]
JareBehr: checks
tenbob: checks
*** RIVER *** [7d 5c Ah 2c] [4h]
JareBehr: bets $4
tenbob: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JareBehr: shows [9s 9h] (a pair of Nines)
tenbob: shows [Ks Kc] (a pair of Kings)
tenbob collected $16.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $17 | Rake $0.80
Board [7d 5c Ah 2c 4h]
Seat 1: ranka666 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: edthekat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mufahula folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Richy10 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: JareBehr (small blind) showed [9s 9h] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 6: Zaphod417 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: lies5317 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tenbob showed [Ks Kc] and won ($16.20) with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: djones148 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[skoldpadda]

great, you made an extra 4 bucks by not betting the flop.
I think you got the maximum here.

 

[ChuckTs]

WA/WB here I bet $6.00 (2/3 pot).

Villains check is either a slow play trap, or a total miss, and you have to find out which. I would expect that normally you take the pot down right then, but you mentioned you had been on an epic rush, which for sure is gonna be pissing him off and he could call with even a big stretch, like a gutshot str8 draw, or the lesser pair.

YARRRRGGGGGGGG

I give. Someone else take this one please.

POKERSTARS GAME #13589862294: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/12/01 - 18:43:56 (ET)
Table 'Rutllant II' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: ranka666 ($135.95 in chips)
Seat 2: edthekat ($124.55 in chips)
Seat 3: mufahula ($84.65 in chips)
Seat 4: Richy10 ($101.20 in chips)
Seat 5: JareBehr ($115.75 in chips)
Seat 6: Zaphod417 ($77.35 in chips)
Seat 7: lies5317 ($103.75 in chips)
Seat 8: tenbob ($126.50 in chips)
Seat 9: djones148 ($16.10 in chips)
JareBehr: posts small blind $0.50
Zaphod417: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [Ks Kc]
lies5317: folds
tenbob: raises $3 to $4
djones148: folds
ranka666: folds
edthekat: folds
mufahula: folds
Richy10: folds
JareBehr: calls $3.50
Zaphod417: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5c Ah]
JareBehr: checks
tenbob: checks
*** TURN *** [7d 5c Ah] 2♣
JareBehr: checks
tenbob: checks
*** RIVER *** [7d 5c Ah 2c] 4♥
JareBehr: bets $4
tenbob: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JareBehr: shows [9s 9h] (a pair of Nines)
tenbob: shows [Ks Kc] (a pair of Kings)
tenbob collected $16.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $17 | Rake $0.80
Board [7d 5c Ah 2c 4h]
Seat 1: ranka666 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: edthekat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mufahula folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Richy10 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: JareBehr (small blind) showed [9s 9h] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 6: Zaphod417 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: lies5317 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tenbob showed [Ks Kc] and won ($16.20) with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: djones148 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I rest my case. Well-played tenbob.

 

[dj11]

So Chuck, I take it you don't like my reply. Well I say 'milktoast'.

As the cards lay, albeit after the fact, villain is likely to call here when I make that $6 bet. He might show more sense than that but rolls reversed, I might even give a pocket pair of 9's another chance to catch the set.

After the flop check, which only gave villain a FREE second chance to catch that 3rd 9, I think another opportunity was missed. Ditto for the check check turn.

As this is in the ring game section, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, as I don't do a lot of ring games (barely any), but from a pure poker POV, I don't like the way this hand played out.

 

[ChuckTs]

So Chuck, I take it you don't like my reply. Well I say 'milktoast'.

As the cards lay, albeit after the fact, villain is likely to call here when I make that $6 bet.

OK so your last post was basically saying to bet because we need to find out where we're at right?

"Villains check is either a slow play trap, or a total miss, and you have to find out which."

What info do we get if we bet and he calls?

What if we bet $6, he calls flop, checks turn and we check behind and then he fires out like $13 on the river? What does he have then?

In other words, we're completely in the dark if we bet - even more so than if we check.

After the flop check, which only gave villain a FREE second chance to catch that 3rd 9, I think another opportunity was missed. Ditto for the check check turn.

Again - MUBS much? Villain has two outs. I know there's always the possibility of letting him outdraw you, but yet again we're not going to be calling huge bets here so we won't ever pay him off for more than a small < pot sized bet.

The value we gain by checking and letting him bluff or bet a worse hand into us is much bigger than the value we lose by letting him outdraw us (which is very very rare, hence way behind).

Sometimes you have to take a little risk to win a lot more - especially when the alternative is one that loses chips long-term and leaves us very much in the dark vs our opponent's hand.

 

[tenbob]

With an ace on this board and both of us relatively deep I want to achieve a few things. Lets look at this from both perspectives.

1) I want to bring this hand to showdown. Checking allows me to do this a cheaply as possible, im definately calling a turn or river bet, as long as it gets kept cheap. I definately dont want to be forced into folding. Betting and getting called means I'm boating the pot with a good but not great hand, and turn or river bets hence will be much larger and more difficult to call.

2) I dont want to pay off an ace or a set. So again checking behind is the best play, because if i am behind im putting the mininum, and im going to reach showdown cheaper.

3) I want value out of lesser hands, that may bet the turn or river, correctly reading me for a hand without the ace. This includes hands like 99 above, hands that at nl$100 are generally done once the ace boards, if they read me correctly for not having it, we will get a turn or river bet for value at some stage in the hand. In this case we done mind letting other pairs see free cards on the turn or river because they are likely drawing to 2 outs or 4/5 outs for 2 pair hands, and even if they do hit we are not paying them off.

 

[dj11]

My experiences suggest if I bet and ONLY get called, that I could easily be ahead. If I get reraised, then I of course give him credit for the possible ace.

TB, you said that you had been on a rush, taking many of the recent pots without showdown. This factors into things. Villain as I suggested may be pissed, or devious, or w/e. If your thinking was along those lines at the time you might have thought that villain was slowplaying an ace. You can hardly justify value betting this as you didn't bet it post flop. If he bets the flop, are you laying your kings down? Do you re-pop if he does at that point to verify he has that ace?

The fact that you rely on the outcome to justify this I think is wrong. Smacks of reverse results oriented thinking.

However, my caveat still stands, and I'll defer to you ring game wizards.

TB's great showing in a group event the other day gives him the megaphone for the week. When I had the megaphone I didn't have much to say, or no challenging thought for discussion. That both Chuck and TB seem to be on the same page here has to be significant.


pssssst, I still think 'MilkToast!'

 

[vanquish]

Guys, Chuck is right. What he wrote makes perfect sense. Please read it and remember it and use it.