# Need some advice on this hand

#### TrentsMomm

##### Hidin' Out
This is my first hand analysis thread so let me have it!!!!!

The only reads I have on anyone is bigbee6969, seems to play any A and raises (strange amounts) with any pair.
I know I should have raised preflop ( I need to work on that ) but with Turbotorben1 going all-in should I have folded or pushed bigbee6969 in proflop?

OK, so I didn't push preflop. After the pair on the flop should I have bet, pushed first or folded to his all-in?

I just have all kinds of questions about how I played this hand? Help!!!!

pokerstars Game #13489065918: Hold'em No Limit (\$0.02/\$0.05) -
2007/11/26 - 19:30:46 (ET)
Table 'Mathesis' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: charlierd (\$6.68 in chips)
Seat 2: Trent's Momm (\$5.19 in chips)
Seat 3: bigbee6969 (\$7.62 in chips)
Seat 4: Smiley614 (\$4.29 in chips)
Seat 5: Gangly_Khan (\$5.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Turbotorben1 (\$1.71 in chips)
Seat 7: Môses (\$0.63 in chips)
Seat 8: thegarman (\$7.35 in chips)
Seat 9: E X 2 (\$11.13 in chips)
thegarman: posts small blind \$0.02
E X 2: posts big blind \$0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Trent's Momm [Kd Ks]
charlierd: folds
Trent's Momm: calls \$0.05
bigbee6969 said, "nut flush"
bigbee6969: raises \$0.10 to \$0.15
Smiley614: folds
Gangly_Khan: folds
Turbotorben1: raises \$1.56 to \$1.71 and is all-in
Môses: calls \$0.63 and is all-in
bigbee6969 said, "]lucky ****s"
thegarman: folds
E X 2: folds
Trent's Momm: calls \$1.66
bigbee6969: calls \$1.56
*** FLOP *** [2s 2h 8s]
Trent's Momm: checks
bigbee6969: bets \$5.91 and is all-in
Trent's Momm: calls \$3.48 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [2s 2h 8s] 4♦
*** RIVER *** [2s 2h 8s 4d] 6♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Trent's Momm: shows [Kd Ks] (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
bigbee6969: mucks hand
Trent's Momm collected \$6.61 from side pot-2
Turbotorben1: mucks hand
Trent's Momm collected \$3.09 from side pot-1
Turbotorben1 leaves the table
Môses: shows [Ts Ac] (a pair of Deuces)
Trent's Momm collected \$2.49 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot \$12.79 Main pot \$2.49. Side pot-1 \$3.09. Side pot-2 \$6.61. |
Rake \$0.60
Board [2s 2h 8s 4d 6h]
Seat 1: charlierd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Trent's Momm showed [Kd Ks] and won (\$12.19) with two pair,
Kings and Deuces
Seat 3: bigbee6969 mucked [Qc Qh]
Seat 4: Smiley614 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Gangly_Khan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Turbotorben1 mucked [5s Qs]
Seat 7: Môses (button) showed [Ts Ac] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 8: thegarman (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: E X 2 (big blind) folded before Flop

F

#### fleft

##### Guest
I would have played this hand very differently. I would have raised to about 25 cents pre flop to begin with. It's usually optimal to have KK against only one, at the very most, two other players. As played you should have re-raised pre-flop to get maximum value from bigbee.

#### dj11

##### Legend
Since you got all the money in play here, how you got it is the question.

Normally the right play is to push but generally not shove Kings, preflop.

In this case you had others feeding what from the beginning looked to be your pot. No need to get aggressive, all you could do is push someone out, thus, in this case, lowering profit. That won't always be the case but here it was fine. If an Ace shows on the board things change big.

In the constantly changing world of poker, the current 'fad' seems to be small ball, in in a small ball game, KK is a fabulous hand to small ball, but this isn't a small ball hand. It was a shove fest, and your attempt at pot control by checking the flop is not bad. You called, and that was probably correct.

Few would put any opponent on a 2 here , so betting would have been fine but might have chased out the money.

You should vary your bets so consider this one of the little bets with big hands, and next time try a big bet with a big hand.

P

#### phatjose

##### Rock Star
I'm not too sure I agree with the preflop play here. I assume that what you were going for is the call, then reraise when someone with position raises? If that's the case, then I would say you need to consider how often people at the .02/.05 level limp in to see a cheap flop. If this were higher stakes where you would be guaranteed a raise from a later position, I say go for it, at this level though, you could have cost yourself value preflop by limping instead of raising.

#### NineLions

Ah, so you're one of those sneaky players who limp AA/KK under the gun, waiting for someone after you to initiate the raising preflop?

Seriously though, with KK I'm happy to get all-in preflop, so whatever might get me and someone else there is good. So first bet I'm raising. Since you didn't, but someone else raises, when it comes back to me I'm raising. In other words, work towards getting all the money in.

On the flop, I'd bet, although if you know he's aggressive, it's fine to let him get his money in first. At this level, he may have A2 but it's unlikely; that's not a hand that should still be playing at the flop, but not impossible at this level.

The only time I'm worrying about the flop is when an Ace hits on the flop, or, it's very co-ordinated in another way; say QJ9 or something that might have hit 2 pair or a straight. Otherwise, again, I'm happy to try to get all the money in on the flop.

As dj says, you got all your money in as you should; but not under your innitative.

#### TrentsMomm

##### Hidin' Out
Ah, so you're one of those sneaky players who limp AA/KK under the gun, waiting for someone after you to initiate the raising preflop? /quote]

No, but yes!

No, I'm one of those players who when I get the courage to raise preflop with KK an A does come on the board and I'm usually screwed. That's my problem with raising preflop and that's why I don't do it often. I will call in a heartbeat, with the right cards, I just have trouble raising.

#### Genso Hikki

##### Cardschat Elite
No, I'm one of those players who when I get the courage to raise preflop with KK an A does come on the board and I'm usually screwed. That's my problem with raising preflop and that's why I don't do it often. I will call in a heartbeat, with the right cards, I just have trouble raising.

I understand this and am guilty of thinking that way on occasion myself. But I try to remember that if I let someone with ace/rag into the pot for cheap I have no one but myself to blame when they get there - make them pay for it.

Also, I'm curious as to why you checked the flop. Were you worried about an Ace/two?

#### TrentsMomm

##### Hidin' Out
Also, I'm curious as to why you checked the flop. Were you worried about an Ace/two?

Yes, I was worried about the 2 and the person I was playing.

#### dj11

##### Legend
You all really need to remember that most (probably well over 50% of ALL deals) give no one anything!

In reality, a pair of ducks is usually the best hand preflop!

If your KK push pushes folks out, thats ok, but occasionally it will find some competition, perhaps that pair of ducks that somebody thought was best hand.

I understand the hesitation many players have about PF raising, and even more about the near paranoia of PF re-raising. It is unfounded! All the books and articles tend to focus on made hands. Well, most (90%+) PF hands are NOT pairs. MOST raises are coming from hands with potential, but no guarantee they will have any of that left post flop.

TM, do this exercise. Do it with play money, preferably at the highest play money stakes you can do. Play the game as if it were a raise or fold game. Paradise used to have these. Those would cap at 4 bets, like normal limit, so during these exercises you can call after the 4th raise.

Play these till raising and re-raising become second nature to you. Till there is seldom any hesitation. Remember it is an exercise and you should do this only with play money at first.

It will amaze you how doing this even for just a few hours will affect your game, and you should probably be happy at the results.

#### TrentsMomm

##### Hidin' Out
TM, do this exercise. Do it with play money, preferably at the highest play money stakes you can do. Play the game as if it were a raise or fold game. Paradise used to have these. Those would cap at 4 bets, like normal limit, so during these exercises you can call after the 4th raise.

I remember these at paradise. I just cannot stand playing with play money because people play with it like freerolls (IMO) but I tried!!! I stayed at a table for about 45 mins, raising and reraising but it just didn't seem to help. Thanks anyway. If you have any more suggestions please let me know dj. I'm just going to have to work on it, and I WILL!!!

Thanks for all the responses!! If anyone else has an opinion, PLEASE post!!!

#### Debi

Ah, so you're one of those sneaky players who limp AA/KK under the gun, waiting for someone after you to initiate the raising preflop? /quote]

No, but yes!

No, I'm one of those players who when I get the courage to raise preflop with KK an A does come on the board and I'm usually screwed. That's my problem with raising preflop and that's why I don't do it often. I will call in a heartbeat, with the right cards, I just have trouble raising.

I used to be that way too - you know it as well as anyone lol. But Tenbob (and others) gave me so much grief that I forced myself to start raising more pre-flop. My range my not be as big as theirs but I do raise with my big hands always - and some other hands in late position. It takes courage and consistency. If you only try it once in a while you will not see how the odds go in your favor long term.

You will get beat sometimes - but long term you will increase your winnings.

I suggest trying it at low NL stakes - and moving up a level each time you get more comfortable with it until you are back to your normal limit.

#### bubbasbestbabe

##### Suckout Queen
At the micro tables subtlies are lost. In fact a big raise PF at these tables gets more callers than just limping. The mentality is of BINGO! poker. Next time try throwing out at least a \$.25 bet and see what happens.

#### Wonka22

##### Visionary
Aye, I agree.....I try, if I open the betting to ALWAYS raise..Pump it or dump it.....If someone else is already in, I'll often limp.

Of course I play tournament poker, not, ring games...I totally suck at ring play.

With Ks tho, I agree, SOMEHOW get all the chips in the middle of the table. Raise, Re-Raise.....

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