KK vs check/raise on a junk paired board

B

bw07507

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bodog History for Hand #700238530
Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007-05-05 22:50:31
Table 'Richelieu Valley' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: HautHand ($9.25)
Seat 2: Drifter Dave ($34.52)
Seat 3: Sammy7 ($9.60)
Seat 7: bw07507 ($14.30)
Seat 8: jim the bass ($27.17)
Seat 9: ThePrison ($21.63)
------------------------------
NEW HAND
ThePrison: posts the small blind $0.05
HautHand: posts the big blind $0.10
--- DEALING POCKETS
bw07507 is dealt [Ks,Kd]
Drifter Dave: calls $0.10
Sammy7: calls $0.10
bw07507: raises $0.40 to $0.50
jim the bass: folds
ThePrison: calls $0.45
HautHand: calls $0.40
Drifter Dave: calls $0.40
Sammy7: folds
--- DEALING FLOP [5h,3d,3h]
ThePrison: checks
HautHand: checks
Drifter Dave: checks
bw07507: bets $2.00
ThePrison: raises $2.00 to $4.00
HautHand: folds
Drifter Dave: folds
bw07507: ?

Heres some numbers on ThePrison:
VPIP: 37.50
%Preflop Raise: 3.13
Total Aggresssion Factor: .37
%Went to showdown: 33.33

Range of hands I put him on are 55-JJ or Ax hearts. Do you push here or reraise and see what he does??
 
J

joeeagles

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Tough spot here, I hate to lose big with KK if money isn't going in preflop. He was SB and first to call your preflop raise, and now he's not respecting your pot size bet and by check/raising he's representing a strong hand.

About the range you're putting him on, although possible, I doubt he has Ax hearts. On $10 max tables players tend to check/call with that type of draw when they're first to act. The problem with these levels is you can't really exclude he has a hand like A3s. An overpair (not AA) is also very likely. The 55 rare but possible. I just don't think he's bluffing, he has something and you are either way ahead or way behind.

As to your question whether to push or reraise, I'm not sure but I think it means you are ready to put your stack in this pot because you're almost sure you're ahead. I think he will call both a reraise or a shove with the range we put him on except maybe if he has a flush draw which I doubt, so it doesn't matter which way you go.

If, instead, you are asking about reraising for the purpose of finding out more about his hand, you need to think ahead. You can't reraise because it will make you pot committed so whatever info you get is pointless.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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37% vpip is a HUGE range.

Total Aggresssion Factor: .37

that's pretty passive postflop. our only reraise here is really a shove. we cant raise to 10 for info and then fold to a shove of $2 more. this is probably something stupid like a3, but i think we have to shove over to protect against draws since you arent sure how he plays combo draws.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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37% vpip is a HUGE range.

Total Aggresssion Factor: .37

that's extremely passive postflop.

FYP. Between how many people saw the flop and this dude's aggression factor, I'd honestly just fold. I can't imagine this isn't 55 or a 3 the large majority of the time. People with aggression factors that low just aren't going to min-checkraise a multiway pot here unless they pretty damn well know they have the best hand.

I really don't think it's a draw. If he's min-checkraising draws in multiway pots on paired boards, his aggression factor would not be that low. Same with vulnerable medium overpairs.
 
J

joeeagles

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I agree to folding too, even if it might sound very weak/tight, but I just don't like this. That was my 1st feeling when I saw this hand, even w/o interpreting those numbers (I didn't know the meaning of Total aggression factor: .37). Like I said I hate to lose my whole stack on KK if less than 5% of it is going in before the flop and over 95% of it is going in after the flop, particularly in a 4-way pot that didn't improve my hand.

It seems though that since he is asking whether to reraise or push he feels like he's ahead and doesn't want to give up on his kings. In that case push is the only option available because a reraise will pot commit him anyway. At most I would just call here but be ready to fold on the turn if he keeps firing at the pot.
 
B

bw07507

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Well, I decided to push this hand, just didnt believe he had 55 and I guess I was hoping he was just on a draw/overpair. He was on a draw and my hand held. Looking back, I could have gotten rid of this hand, but I have a really hard time getting rid of KK and AA, something I have to work on.

NEW HAND
ThePrison: posts the small blind $0.05
HautHand: posts the big blind $0.10
--- DEALING POCKETS
bw07507 is dealt [Ks,Kd]
Drifter Dave: calls $0.10
Sammy7: calls $0.10
bw07507: raises $0.40 to $0.50
jim the bass: folds
ThePrison: calls $0.45
HautHand: calls $0.40
Drifter Dave: calls $0.40
Sammy7: folds
--- DEALING FLOP [5h,3d,3h]
ThePrison: checks
HautHand: checks
Drifter Dave: checks
bw07507: bets $2.00
ThePrison: raises $2.00 to $4.00
HautHand: folds
Drifter Dave: folds
bw07507: goes all in $11.80
ThePrison: calls $9.80
ThePrison: shows [Jh,Ah], a Pair, Threes
--- DEALING TURN [Qc]
--- DEALING RIVER [5c]
ThePrison: shows [Jh,Ah], Two Pair, Fives and Threes
bw07507: shows [Ks,Kd], Two Pair, Kings and Fives
Hand 700238530:
bw07507: wins main pot($29.60)
with Two Pair, Kings and Fives
 
J

joeeagles

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Wow, I'm amazed he actually was on a draw, I was so wrong, but I'm glad it worked out for you.

About what you say having a hard time getting rid of hands like AA or KK, they do give alot of trouble at times because it is hard to fold them even when it appears evident that they have become 2nd best. There is a thread right now in the "poker strategies" forum entitled "reraising with AA and KK", where ChuckT's adds a link to another thread that I suggest you read because it's very interesting. It talks about strategy with big PP's, essentially suggesting that if you can't make the pot huge PF for any reason, then it is best to keep it small when the flop doesn't improve your hand. Give it a look.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I'd be with joe; that passive and check-raising at this level, I would have put him on a made hand.

But apparently he has worse problems laying down than you do, if he calls your push with AJ.

The only other piece of the puzzle that might be missing is how he perceived you; if you bet/raised a lot of pots recently, maybe he thought you were bluffing.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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people are seriously folding KK to a check-minraise on a 533 board? i knew the games are getting nitty nowadays, but that's ridiculous.

the range specified in the OP seems pretty good to me. given that range for villain, we have to shove here, because he's probably calling with everything in that range, and we're ahead of far more hands than we're behind.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Shrug. Just seems like a weird result to me. There's just no reasonable way for me to put a guy with an aggression factor that incredibly low on overcards + draw when he check-minraises ina multiway pot.

I still think this result is the exception and not the rule, and I'd still fold. People shouldn't underestimate how low of an aggression factor that is. Maybe he was "trying something new".
 
B

bw07507

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Shrug. Just seems like a weird result to me. There's just no reasonable way for me to put a guy with an aggression factor that incredibly low on overcards + draw when he check-minraises ina multiway pot.

I still think this result is the exception and not the rule, and I'd still fold. People shouldn't underestimate how low of an aggression factor that is. Maybe he was "trying something new".

Well I only had 35 hands on the guy, so maybe just caught his unaggressive hands, however I had seen him donk off about 4 dollars earlier on absoutely nothing so that probably did it for me
 
J

joeeagles

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DM,

I'm not going to argue the fact you consider weak/tight folding in that situation, it probably is. The reason why I consider it is because I know, at that level, how certain players think about starting hands having lost a few of these in the past. I'll describe you one from a while ago.

I had AA in LP ($10 max) with 2 limpers in the pot, I raise to 7BB and get called by both limpers. Flop is K-7-2 rainbow and they check to me. I bet 3/4 pot, 1st limper folds 2nd raises me, I shove on that board he calls. Turn and river are blanks, but he has Kh2h and beats me with 2 pair. Could I possibly think I was behind when I shoved?

I know you're going to say this means and proves nothing, and you're right. The reason I bring it up is because you can't exclude the chance he has a 3 just because he called the 5BB raise preflop. At this level ($10 max) ranges are very wide and when the board has a pair you must be careful because anything is possible, as much unlikely as it seems. That is a lesson I have learned from the past.

When you look at this hand the draw is very unlikely because villain is first to act and from past experience a high % of players go in check/call mode. I was wrong in this case so I accept the weak/tight label, I just wanted to explain why I proceed cautiosly in these situations where I have a big pocket PP and most of the money is going in after the flop.
 
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