KJ on AJ7 flop vs 2 opponents

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Same TAG game from us.

sam is very loose and somewhat aggressive, and drsemloh is fairly loose-passive.

Pokerstars Game (?) HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/11/06 - 02:52:32 (ET)
Table 'Sidonia' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: sam2dope4u ($8.30 in chips)
Seat 2: drsemloh ($28.80 in chips)
Seat 3: xXBambi82Xx ($31.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($26.20 in chips)
Seat 5: verygud ($31.35 in chips)
Seat 6: blackmore ($4.60 in chips)
sam2dope4u: posts small blind $0.10
drsemloh: posts big blind $0.25

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
diamK.gif
spadeJ.gif
]
xXBambi82Xx: folds
Hero : raises $0.60 to $0.85
verygud: folds
blackmore: folds
sam2dope4u: calls $0.75
drsemloh: calls $0.60

Flop: (Pot: $2.55)
[
spade7.gif
clubJ.gif
diamA.gif
]
sam2dope4u: checks
drsemloh: checks
Hero : ...

What's our action and/or plan for the hand?

 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Well I don't think I'm going to put either of them on an ace until they tell me, since they both were in the blinds and could call rather cheaply, also if they think at all (don't know if 25nl players do) then they surely wouldn't call with a crappy ace and check when it came.

So right here I'm going to bet about $1.65 or so and see what happens.

If we get a call I'm going to slow down a bit and still deny them having an ace until I see a bet of some kind from them.

There are no draws so they're likely on a weak J or middle 7 or so.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Betting for info sounds all fine and good, but I've got a second question: what better hands are we folding out, and what worse hands are we getting a call from if we bet?
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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We're not really folding out any better hands, unless they know that it's alright to drop something ilke A6 to a bet from the pf raiser. but there are a lot of crap hands that'll call, such as weak 7's and vulnerable jacks. Like I said I'm not giving credit for an Ace until he makes me pay. With a caller I'll throw out another bet on the turn and check the river if allowed. If cheap then I'll see a cheap showdown, but I'd rather determine the price.

The reason I want a cheap showdown here with no improvement is because if they are on an A6 or something they might just call you down and not raise fearinga better Ace.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I check behind. No-one's calling unless you're beat, and if you're not, then there aren't too many scare cards for you. If you are behind, you give yourself a chance to improve. Heads-up I'm probably betting here, but 3-way or more, I think it's better to check. And if someone has A6, good on them - I'm not going to try to bluff them off it. If you think you're behind, and that they have top pair, it's usually a good idea to fold.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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We're not really folding out any better hands, unless they know that it's alright to drop something ilke A6 to a bet from the pf raiser.

Exactly.

And regarding A6, it's never folding this flop if it's calling PF.

So again, why are we betting? Ax is calling down, and we're probably folding out a weaker jack. There aren't many draws out there (gutshots only), and only one overcard to our pair, a queen.

What do you think about checking?

I check behind. No-one's calling unless you're beat, and if you're not, then there aren't too many scare cards for you. If you are behind, you give yourself a chance to improve. Heads-up I'm probably betting here, but 3-way or more, I think it's better to check. And if someone has A6, good on them - I'm not going to try to bluff them off it. If you think you're behind, and that they have top pair, it's usually a good idea to fold.

Exactomundo.

Why are you betting HU though? What changes?
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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Why are you betting HU though? What changes?
Not sure really... I suppose it's just half as likely that someone else has it. I c-bet a lot less multi-way when I'm bluffing, just because I'm more likely to be against a real hand, although I will bet sometimes on a flop like this depending on my position and their likely ranges based on pre-flop.

HU, I'm almost always betting A-high flops if I raised pre-flop. Sometimes I'll have it, often I won't, and sometimes I'll have a tweener hand, but I think it's good to keep people guessing. Plus you don't get into nasty situations when they realize you don't have the Ace and start betting into you on the turn and river. And heads-up, with middle pair you probably have the best hand anyway, so it's a value bet when people know you'll be betting any Ace-high flop and call you down with a worse Jack, a pair of Tens etc.

Hopefully you can fish something coherent out of that!
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Not sure really... I suppose it's just half as likely that someone else has it. I c-bet a lot less multi-way when I'm bluffing, just because I'm more likely to be against a real hand, although I will bet sometimes on a flop like this depending on my position and their likely ranges based on pre-flop.

This is basically a WA/WB (though there are a few gutshots which changes things slightly). The likelyhood of him holding an ace doesn't really matter (unless we're talking about the theoretical situation we're sure he's got it in which case we're ch-folding).

We check because we're either behind, or we're not, and we're only getting called by better hands. We also want to lure the worse ones in.

HU, I'm almost always betting A-high flops if I raised pre-flop. Sometimes I'll have it, often I won't, and sometimes I'll have a tweener hand, but I think it's good to keep people guessing. Plus you don't get into nasty situations when they realize you don't have the Ace and start betting into you on the turn and river. And heads-up, with middle pair you probably have the best hand anyway, so it's a value bet when people know you'll be betting any Ace-high flop and call you down with a worse Jack, a pair of Tens etc.

Hopefully you can fish something coherent out of that!

Heh. Well I thought you were talking about bluffing, but I see you mean that you expect to be called by worse hands. I personally rarely see TT or 99 calling down here, but I agree that JT will occasionally call the flop and check it down.

Anyways, I don't think this isn't exactly WA/WB, but it's pretty close and we can apply the same concept.

Pokerstars Game (?) HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/11/06 - 02:52:32 (ET)
Table 'Sidonia' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: sam2dope4u ($8.30 in chips)
Seat 2: drsemloh ($28.80 in chips)
Seat 3: xXBambi82Xx ($31.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($26.20 in chips)
Seat 5: verygud ($31.35 in chips)
Seat 6: blackmore ($4.60 in chips)
sam2dope4u: posts small blind $0.10
drsemloh: posts big blind $0.25

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
diamK.gif
spadeJ.gif
]
xXBambi82Xx: folds
Hero : raises $0.60 to $0.85
verygud: folds
blackmore: folds
sam2dope4u: calls $0.75
drsemloh: calls $0.60

Flop: (Pot: $2.55)
[
spade7.gif
clubJ.gif
diamA.gif
]
sam2dope4u: checks
drsemloh: checks
Hero : checks

Turn: (Pot: $2.55)
[
spade7.gif
clubJ.gif
diamA.gif
] [
spade6.gif
]
sam2dope4u: bets $1
drsemloh: folds
Hero : calls $1

River: (Pot: $4.55)
[
spade7.gif
clubJ.gif
diamA.gif
spade6.gif
] [
diam8.gif
]
sam2dope4u: bets $1.25
Hero : calls $1.25

Showdown:
sam2dope4u: shows [
spade8.gif
diam5.gif
] (a pair of Eights)
Hero : shows [
diamK.gif
spadeJ.gif
] (a pair of Jacks)
Hero collected $6 .75 from pot

SUMMARY:
Total pot $7.05 | Rake $0.30


Kind of a brag (sorry), but I think it demonstrates wa/wb nicely.

lol 85 :eek:
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Watching this hand is a lot different than just reading about it. I probably would've still bet because I'm so use to 10max, but while watching I didn't have betting as the first part in my mind.
 
J

jeffred1111

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I check behind here a lot because we are not folding anything that doesn't have us drawing to 5 outs while we are giving a chance for someone to catch up and bluff into us on the turn.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Although betting doesn't achieve fold better hands, I would bet here. If you get called you're most likely beat, it's up to you to see if you think they have Ax (and have the discipline to lay it down) and want to fire another bullet on the turn or river. But the important thing is we now know we're ahead or behind. If we check behind and then on the turn one of the two pushes in a ~pot sized bet? Are they on a bluff? Did they slow-play the flop hoping for a bet? That's the value of betting for information.

After seeing the results, what the hell was this guy smoking? Calling a >3x raise with 85o? And then VALUE BETTING IT??? Guess that's why it's possible to make a profit at online poker.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Although betting doesn't achieve fold better hands, I would bet here. If you get called you're most likely beat, it's up to you to see if you think they have Ax (and have the discipline to lay it down) and want to fire another bullet on the turn or river. But the important thing is we now know we're ahead or behind. If we check behind and then on the turn one of the two pushes in a ~pot sized bet? Are they on a bluff? Did they slow-play the flop hoping for a bet? That's the value of betting for information.

The value we get from worse hands calling and the value we save when we're behind are way more important than the value of the information we gain by betting.

If we bet and get called by the maniac, what information does that give us? He could be on a draw, could be floating for a bluff, could have us crushed...basically we're still in the dark. We've also bloated the pot now with second pair and might have to make some tough decisions later on for a more expensive price.

Checking behind saves money when we're behind, draws money in when we're ahead, and induces bluffs (see 85o).

After seeing the results, what the hell was this guy smoking? Calling a >3x raise with 85o? And then VALUE BETTING IT??? Guess that's why it's possible to make a profit at online poker.

Yep :)

If we bet that flop, he's gone.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I think this hand illustrates what a waste of time 1/4-pot-sized bets are. It was pretty obvious Chuck was weak, and if he'd bet properly on the turn (something in the region of $2.30), especially having picked up an OESD, he'd have won the hand.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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With his previous play I probably still call down. Guy was a lunatic (80/25 or something).
 
beechleaf

beechleaf

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like I saide before ring games has lots of chasers
 
B

bw07507

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Exactly how I wouldve played it Chuck. Either HU or 3-way. If a person is calling with A-crap here, there is a chance they will slow play it. If they are bad enough to call OoP with A-crap, they are crappy enough to slow play it. Check/call here is a good line.
 
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