Easy Laydown????

[joosebuck]

2 Villains are both loose/agg. One who called the all in in between myself and the other bro had just lost 2 big pots in a row. Easy fold? Not so easy considering playstyles?




pokerstars Game #6125088391: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/08/31 - 22:41:12 (ET)
Table 'Cesco' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Silverback82 ($13.80 in chips)
Seat 2: krovikan1 ($14.10 in chips)
Seat 3: Zedekiah ($33.10 in chips)
Seat 4: jmben ($13.35 in chips)
Seat 6: JD Flats ($50.20 in chips)
Seat 7: jizoo9000 ($5.15 in chips)
Seat 8: foodgod ($14.85 in chips)
Seat 9: joosebucklol ($28.95 in chips)
Zedekiah: posts small blind $0.10
jmben: posts big blind $0.25
Silverback82: posts small & big blinds $0.35
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to joosebucklol [Qh Jh]
JD Flats: folds
jizoo9000: calls $0.25
foodgod: folds
joosebucklol: calls $0.25
Silverback82: checks
krovikan1: calls $0.25
Zedekiah: folds
jmben: checks
*** FLOP *** [5s 9h Qd]
jmben: bets $0.50
jizoo9000: calls $0.50
joosebucklol: raises $1.50 to $2
Silverback82: folds
krovikan1: folds
jmben: raises $11.10 to $13.10 and is all-in
jizoo9000: calls $4.40 and is all-in
joosebucklol: ..........................

 

[shinedown.45]

personally I would fold thinking that one holds maybe A-Q, A-9, or even 5-9, did you find out what they did have?

 

[ChuckTs]

jmben can have anything; he's been blinded in...i'd be pretty cautious with calling his all in. Had the other player (shortstack) been the only bet to call, It'd be an instacall...but of course that's not the situation....

personally I would fold thinking that one holds maybe A-Q, A-9, or even 5-9

You would fold if you thought OP held A9 or A5???

 

[Stick66]

I say he has 2 pair, an overpair, or a set. I don't think he'd re-raise all in with top pair, even with top kicker.

How's your image to them? Does he read you as "bully" or "maniac" and is playing back at you because he thinks you're stealing?

 

[joosebuck]

I am tight. I am aggressive. I incorporate a lot of deception into my play and don't often get shown down without winning or having a good hand (better than tptk)

 

[joosebuck]

Both villains have been quite loose. Have seen all in's by the shortstack on draws more than once. Haven't seen any showdowns from the other villain, but has like 45 vp$ip and a high AF.

 

[scifell]

I think you have to fold here. You really cant beat much of anything, and there are very few realistic draws they could be on. If they are playing as loosely and aggressively as you suspect, then let it go and get the money back on a hand where you have stronger cards yourself- rather than risking the money *just in case* this is one of those times where you are not beat (not to mention the chance of being outdrawn).

 

[ChuckTs]

I say he has 2 pair, an overpair, or a set.

He definitely IMO does not have an overpair. He checked his option in the big blind, and made a very weak flop bet. I do agree with 2 pair/set though - those are most probably what he has, and i think you could also through in queen with weak kicker in aswell since he's loose. He could be making a play with something like QT trying to take the pot down. I still think you're beat though, and you should probably fold.

 

[titans4ever]

First and formost, I think your reraise is iffy at best. You can call here and see the next card for $.50. You have a good hand but not one worth reraising there. With a bet and call ahead of you, you have to assume that at least one of them has a Q and might have you out kicked. I understand reraising to see where they really stand in the hand and you found out quickly with the all-in and call. I think I would have just called to see what the turn brought before I really took a stab at the pot.

By reraising here you set your self up for the all-in moment by the set or at least someone to try to represent one.

There are so many limping hands that still have you beat, especially KQ, 99 and 55. I think you could rule out the JJ since most players will reraise with that hand. You will have to assume that with an all-in and call, top pair with J kicker is no good here.

 

[ChuckTs]

First and formost, I think your reraise is iffy at best. You can call here and see the next card for $.50. You have a good hand but not one worth reraising there. With a bet and call ahead of you, you have to assume that at least one of them has a Q and might have you out kicked. I understand reraising to see where they really stand in the hand and you found out quickly with the all-in and call. I think I would have just called to see what the turn brought before I really took a stab at the pot.

I have to disagree with you here on raising being a bad play. How else are you to know where you stand in a hand? Let's step back and look at how the situation is. You're at a .25/.50 table (usually alot of donks and maniacs - TPTK NUTS OMG ALLIN), you've got top pair, medium kicker in a limped pot, and you have a very weak bet and call ahead of you. You have to raise. What if the bettor has 66 or 78? What if the caller has A9 or JT? You don't want to give either of them a free card to outdraw you, and in order to find out what anyone has, you have to raise.

If you just call, you get no info. Now after you've raised, you get your info (all in). The player has announced with his bet that he has TPMK beat, and probably 1 pair beat too, so you should fold. Only with a raise did you get the info you needed to get rid of your hand, which you now know is probably beat. Not only do you need to raise for value, but you may, and probably do have the best hand, so raising could also serve as a value bet aswell.

Now what if you cold-called, the turn brought a 2, and OP now bets 1.50 into you? Fold? Maybe call again? Raise now? You're completely in the dark, and OP could just be betting middle pair thinking that he's still ahead, and you might fold...then again he could be value betting 99, and you would have no idea.

Wow...i went off there... anyways, my point is that IMO, you have to raise for info.

By reraising here you set your self up for the all-in moment by the set or at least someone to try to represent one.

This I agree with, but again, how are you to know this without raising? Would it be smarter to call down for say $5 total only to find that OP has 55 or 99 or some other hand that beats you, or raise for $2 now, and take the pot down, or fold to an over-the-top rereraise?

 

[t1riel]

I'm sure it's been said already but I would have raised preflop with Q, J suited in late position. If one of the players has a set, it wouldn't have made much difference because the player would have called with their pocket pair. That being said, I would fold here. I might consider calling if you had A, Q suited, which is another possibility to what your opponents have.