$600 NLHE Full Ring: Live 2/5 facing nit raise and BTN 3 bet in SB

[c0rnBr34d]

Made a questionable decision here and wanted to get thoughts from others.

V1 is middle aged nit reg who always opens for 3 BB with top 5% hands. Not scared money though so you will be lucky to 3 bet him off his raising range (have seen it happen a few times over the sessions but rare). He's sitting on a short stack of about $275.

V2 is a younger player I haven't seen before but he's sitting next to his other younger player talking strat at the table. Seems decent but will make some moves. He doesn't chop for example and raised the SB vs BB with 85s. Flopped an 8 and won vs K2s that turned a 2 in relatively small pot. Seems to have bluffs to but hasn't shown down much in large pots. Covers all with about $1500

Hero is middle aged and should also be seen as nitty this session as we have been patient just waiting for spots. Stole a few times with suited connectors but no show downs. Sitting about $900

OTTH: Folds to V1 who opens $15, young kid calls and V2 3 bets to $65 on the BU. Hero looks down at AcQc. Hero? I went into the tank here and decided flatting was the worst option. We can cold 4 ball it or fold for $2 and watch the fireworks. If we cold 4 bet nit will fold his AQ- and JJ-, not sure what he does with QQ exactly. He's ripping AK, KK+. V2 has us covered and also knows V1 is a nit so he shouldn't be raising too light here just for the sake of isolation. I know he's capable of maybe having TT-JJ here that would make for an interesting side pot but if V1 has AK or QQ then we are blocked and behind vs both. Am I a super nit if I want to fold here?

 

[kkonicke]

For starters, I don't think it's THAT bad to call in position there. I think if V1 4bet squeezes, it's an easy fold. If he calls, you have a pretty good idea of his range. Folding is a bit nitty I think, a 4bet really isn't bad. I think I'd lean towards some calls and some 4bets in this spot...almos tnever fold.

 

[gustav197poker]

AQ has a preflop force of approximately 90% of all possible combinations of the deck. It also blocks A-A and Q-Q. And block 2 minor ladder lines (K-9; Q-8).
When you face these villains, you are often behind K-K; J-J; T-T; 9-9; etc.
In this general line you are below approximately 80%.
That is, you do not block most of the high-middle-low line of pp. You also have the disadvantage of being out of position and against a villain who covers you and probably wants to stack v1, who may be willing to fight hard is this spot.
I think your action is a totally correct and reasonable fold. There will be better places.
Regards.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

For starters, I don't think it's THAT bad to call in position there. I think if V1 4bet squeezes, it's an easy fold. If he calls, you have a pretty good idea of his range. Folding is a bit nitty I think, a 4bet really isn't bad. I think I'd lean towards some calls and some 4bets in this spot...almost never fold.

Thanks for your input, but we aren't in position. We have the worst relative position in the SB with V1 behind and V2 OTB both of whom are repping very strong ranges and both of whom will see our range as capped if we flat. It seems really bad to put in 13 BB just to hope V1 doesn't 4 bet so we can see a flop 3 ways with the worst position. We still aren't loving life if we hit an Ace or a Queen. We would need two pair or a combo to really do well against both ranges out of position. I did tank for a bit contemplating the cold 4 bet.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

AQ has a preflop force of approximately 90% of all possible combinations of the deck. It also blocks A-A and Q-Q. And block 2 minor ladder lines (K-9; Q-8).
When you face these villains, you are often behind K-K; J-J; T-T; 9-9; etc.
In this general line you are below approximately 80%.
That is, you do not block most of the high-middle-low line of pp. You also have the disadvantage of being out of position and against a villain who covers you and probably wants to stack v1, who may be willing to fight hard is this spot.
I think your action is a totally correct and reasonable fold. There will be better places.
Regards.

I didn't expect too many to want to fold with me. I was thinking the same. Maybe a little too MUBsy but it just felt like someone had KK and I would need to flop an Ace or two pair or a flush draw.

 

[fundiver199]

Am I a super nit if I want to fold here?

Certainly not. That is in fact the standard play and the one, I would recommend, especially when original raiser is a nit. AQ is toast against AK (9 combos) and QQ+ (12 combos), so its certainly not a 4-bet for value, and why pick the tightest player on the table and target him for a bluff. Calling out of position is also gross, because for starters the young guy has reopened the betting for the nit, so now he might put in a 4-bet.

 

[LevySystem]

Certainly not. That is in fact the standard play and the one, I would recommend, especially when original raiser is a nit. AQ is toast against AK (9 combos) and QQ+ (12 combos), so its certainly not a 4-bet for value, and why pick the tightest player on the table and target him for a bluff. Calling out of position is also gross, because for starters the young guy has reopened the betting for the nit, so now he might put in a 4-bet.

In fact I think we should pick the tight player to 3bet, in this case 4bet.

Now it is a 4bet bluff (exploitative play), so fold is the right thing to do, but the question is if V2 knows that V1 is a nit? The Kid is capped and we can assume he will fold. V2 might make a move because V1 is tight + dead money. It all depends if 3x open (V1) of 5% is realistic here. If so, clear fold. If he is a reasonable nit (lol) he plays like 14/10 or something wich makes the move +ev assuming V2 understands the game and 3bets reasonable ranges here.

 

[quant1986]

I think If BTN 3bet size is smaller and BB playing deep passive, you can flat preflop.

But if your read is correct, AQs is crushed by V1/V2 and I dont mind a fold.

Also I don't think nit would fold QQ under 60BB deep

 

[fundiver199]

In fact I think we should pick the tight player to 3bet, in this case 4bet.

Usually if people are really tight, they dont fold much to 3-bets. And why would they? If you only open really good hands, there is no need to fold to 3-bets. So for me personally I would much rather target players with wide ranges than players with tight.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Good discussion. Thanks all. I did end up folding and V1 jammed, V2 sigh called and turned over QQ. The board ran out all low cards and V1 mucked (I'm guessing AK).