$500 Max 2/5 NL – Tight player Raise

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red_dawn_28

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$500 Max 2/5 NL cash game at the Taj in AC

Hero BB $400
Villain Cutoff $650

Very tight player raises to $25 in LP. I am on the button and call with Ad,Qd. We see the flop 2 handed.

Flop: As, 3c, 3h

I check and Villain makes a standard c-bet of $30. I raise to $75 and he goes all-in. I was really betwixt and between about what to do here. I actually put him on KK as strange as that sounds. AK was obviously a very distinct possibility. I read him for KK because he had waited so long to finally play a hand and lo and behold (as always seems to happen when you have KK or QQ) there is an A on the flop and his all-in was almost an angry/steam raise b/c of the Ace. We both know his c-bet was automatic and therefore meaningless because I checked to him and I could very well be representing the ace with my raise. In addition, he was staring me down like he wanted to bite my head off and otherwise just acting really strong like he didn’t want a call – and we all know what that means. On the other hand, AK is very likely to be in his range, with the caveat that I have one of the Aces and another one is on the flop (this is why I basically dismiss AA from the realm of possibility). Furthermore, if he does have AK, why go all in? Why not let me hang myself? He is only behind a 3 (almost impossible as I called a $25 raise) or AA?

Hero: ???

Thanks
Red Dawn
 
zachvac

zachvac

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hmm, interesting problem. You can pretty much rule out trips (if he really is a tight player), and the problem is this play makes no sense with any hand. If he had AK, you'd think he'd either slowplay or make a bet he thinks you'll call. If he had KK, you'd think he'd just call your raise. Although with KK he's probably worried about you throwing another bullet on the turn and river. He's probably hoping that with the board pair he can get you off an A fearing trips, not realizing you're actually a decent player who realizes that when a tight player like him raises, he's not likely to have a 3. My first thought was to fold, since all you have is top pair, not even top kicker. But when I think about it, there's not much that has you beat. No single low to mid cards for a set, no flush or straight draw out there, so he can't be protecting. Unless he has you pegged as the kind of player who would think this through and think his over-bet meant bluff and did it with AK, you're probably ahead. I think you almost have to call here, although it is a tough spot.
 
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baconn

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I think you have to call here. I don't believe he has AA. hands like KK and AK are possible, but if he had AK why a c-bet of only $30? also why go all in? I think something like KK or QQ is probably the villians hand.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Why do this with AK? Because he can trap you with AQ or maybe AJ. Just look at your thought process now.

The bigger question is why the hell he would risk his whole stack with KK on this board, and what purpose that serves. If you're loose enough to look him up with AQ (sounds like you're pretty close to doing so), then villain should have picked up on this and should know that he should expect to get called fairly often.

As for your strength tell, he could easily be using reverse tells. They say not to bank your hand decisions on tells, and I think this could be a perfect example.

A few more things.

For one, are you actually on the button or in the blinds? ie how do you check-raise an LP raiser if you're on the button?

Also, calling the flop is also a viable option - one that I actually like better. This is basically classic wa/wb, as villain either has AK/AA and has you crushed, or he's got QQ-KK/KQ/AJ or something similar and you have him crushed. In those spots it's often good to play your hand passively to keep the pot small because most times you're not getting a lot of action from a hand you have beat, so there's no use in betting it strong.

I just think we have to take a step back here and realize that we're about to stack a 'very tight' player with AQ on an A33 flop. Even if it is a decision between AK and KK, we're more likely to see AK since there are more combinations of the hand (16 vs 12 I think).
 
vanquish

vanquish

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i hate the c/r on flop, i call flop and re-evaluate turn
 
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red_dawn_28

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After much thought I called and he flipped over the same hand: AQ. The whole table was like "good call". Villain was kind of a bastard - no words of praise - just a stone expression.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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Villain was kind of a bastard - no words of praise - just a stone expression.
When I play casino poker, I'm also quiet with a "stone" expression. Do people really interpret that as being "kind of a bastard"? I'm quiet because I think a lot at the table since I'm still kinda new to live poker. I also don't want to reveal future tells. I hope people don't think I'm being a jerk.
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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I was going to say the most plausible (though still wierd) hand is AQ :)

The bigger question is why the hell he would risk his whole stack with KK on this board, and what purpose that serves.

Live poker is basically just one big giggle


Even if it is a decision between AK and KK, we're more likely to see AK since there are more combinations of the hand (16 vs 12 I think).

:confused: - 8 vs 6 surely...

edit: Yeah c/r isn't v. nice, c/c standard probs in this wa/wb
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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How'd you count the combos of AK and KK, jt?

I'm not saying I'm right, just confused...wouldn't it be...

4 aces * 4 kings = 16 different combos of AK?

4 kings * 3 remaining kings = 12 different combos of KK?
 
C

Connon

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No because you have counted the combinations of, for example KdKs different from KsKd, so you have counted double the hands.

The simple difference between permutations and combinations :)
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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P and C has completely left my memory bank :)

AsKs
AsKc
AsKd
AsKh

AcKs
AcKc
AcKd
AcKh

AdKs
AdKc
AdKd
AdKh

AhKs
AhKc
AhKd
AhKh

Is that not right?

Then for KK...

KcKd
KcKs
KcKh
KhKs
KhKd
KdKs

I guess I was wrong with the pair though...

Man I feel out of the loop...I need a beer...
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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How'd you count the combos of AK and KK, jt?

I'm not saying I'm right, just confused...wouldn't it be...

4 aces * 4 kings = 16 different combos of AK?

yep, but 2 aces are used up on board and in our hand meaning only 8 combos but fair enough in general yep

4 kings * 3 remaining kings = 12 different combos of KK?

nope, permutations aren't the same as combinations, so it is in fact it is only 6 - thinking practically Kd can combine with 3 other kings but then the Ks can only combine with 2 (as KdKs has already been counted) and Kc/Kh can only combine with each other as the other combos have been counted:: 3 + 2 + 1 = 6.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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ahh that was the key...completely forgot the ace on the board :eek:

Thanks guys :)
 
C

Connon

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yeh my post was wrong i meant to put KdKs and KsKd not AdKs KsAd your right about the AK it is 16.

But not if you include the board/hand, in which case it is 8 as said before.
 
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