$50 NLHEFull Ring: Pkt Q's in SB - UTG 4x the BB raise from 452BB stack & a flat in M

[BelgoSuisse]

how does a nit accumulate 452 bbs off other nits?

He gets a lucky streak of set mining gone right and AA>KK preflop.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

if he's a nit his range here is uber-strong and will probably continue with most of it.

but that range crushes us.

 

[fx20736]

To people who 3bet this preflop:

• do you play full ring?
• Do you play 50 or 100nl?
• do you fold to a 4bet or get it in?
• do you think you fare well against the range an unknown FR player plays for stacks from UTG?

FWIW, the biggest winners at 100nl FR at the moment (QQ-quads-QQ and Paketa7) typically 3bet around 3% overall. I'm pretty sure they both flat with QQ here and so would I. I would 3bet it at 6max, I would 3bet it at 10nl FR, I would 3bet it at 400nl FR, but I really don't think that's the right play at 50nl FR.

3% = AA KK QQ JJ AK (3.01%)

That shows that sound ABC poker beats LAG crap and fancy plays. I know I get sick to my stomach when I try to 3bet AQ, KQs & 99 and get called.

I constantly struggle with the idea of flatting QQ vs 3bet when OOP. I sometimes think it is the right thing to do and sometimes I feel like it would be smarter to just fold but have had a hard time laying down Queens to a raise. Against a 3% range you are:

Crushed by AA KK
tied with QQ AK
ahead of JJ

AA & KK make up only 29% of that range so I guess when flatting I assume a flop without an A or K means a strong c-bet? Also what if the A or K does hit, that is 70% of his range, so do you check/ fold risking a fold vs JJ or QQ?

Figuring out to how to play QQ OOP vs a re-raise is my demon it was first post on this forum. So if you have any theories on this please share.

 

[baudib1]

wat



equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.629% 46.25% 01.38% 194824356 5801790.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 52.371% 50.99% 01.38% 214798848 5801790.00 { QQ }

surely he might show up with an AQs or 99 here too?

 

[baudib1]

Figuring out to how to play QQ OOP vs a re-raise is my demon it was first post on this forum. So if you have any theories on this please share.

I think four-bet/call it off or fold are your best options and in FR I think folding is likely best. and if you're faced with UTG raise + 3-bet QQ in the blinds is a fold as well.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

3% = AA KK QQ JJ AK (3.01%)

Yeah, but their 3bet ranges vary immensely depending on their position and the position of the original raiser. It's probably AA or KK+ versus a tight UTG opener, and a huge range in BTN vs. CO open and blinds vs BTN open.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I know I get sick to my stomach when I try to 3bet AQ, KQs & 99 and get called.

That makes no sense. If you 3bet those specific hands, you 3bet them for value because you expect to get called by worse. And then you have no reason to get sick when villain calls.

If the point of your 3bet is almost exclusively to get villain to fold, you should 3bet 72o and keep AQ, KQ and 99 in your flatting range.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

wat

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.629% 46.25% 01.38% 194824356 5801790.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 52.371% 50.99% 01.38% 214798848 5801790.00 { QQ }

surely he might show up with an AQs or 99 here too?

Is that a response to my "but that range crushes us"?

I think a lot of people fold JJ-,AK when they open UTG and get 3bet unless there's history. And I'm pretty sure that's correct of them given how little people typically 3bet at 50nl FR.

 

[fx20736]

That makes no sense. If you 3bet those specific hands, you 3bet them for value because you expect to get called by worse. And then you have no reason to get sick when villain calls.

If the point of your 3bet is almost exclusively to get villain to fold, you should 3bet 72o and keep AQ, KQ and 99 in your flatting range.

I'm pretty new to Poker but aside from hitting a set with a 9 what kind of flop could you be happy with with against someone who flatted 3bets OOP? (Assuming it's a decent player)? Are you bluffing an Ace high flop? Also with AQ & KQ if you hit you could have kicker problems or be against a set.

I work very hard to try to avoid cold calling raises preflop and am more and more resistant to even calling a 3rd bet with equity (In other words I either 4bet/ shove AA/KK or fold). At first I would call on the button with small pp's/ scs/ weak suited Aces but it seemed like a big leak, esp when I got some of the flop but not alot so I stopped doing it. For a while I then mixed up some 3bet bluffs with suited connectors on the button, especially in multiway pots and actually hit a few monsters but overall that seemed like a leak too. Then I got to a point when I was flatting AA-JJ on the button if there was a raise and no callers but the times I stacked an opp with AA I would have got their money anyway because they had KK or QQ and probably would have 4bet or flat called my raise. So now I really try to play raise/ fold preflop. Maybe eventually I'll advance beyond that thinking but for now it makes decisions simpler. When OOP I 3bet with AA-JJ, AK. When IP I might add AQs, AJs, TT. Also I learned that playing AK from the blinds in a raised multiway pot is suicide. In fact without any pot equity I would fold QQ in a pot that was raised and re-raised before the action got to me.

I am trying to plug the leaks in my game, for 30k hands I lost about $ 130, largely because I was in the habit of shoving with nut flush draws or 4 bet/ shoving with QQ and sometimes JJ and not knowing when TPTK was beat. I have been playing break even to slightly plus poker for a little over 5k hands now and it seems like my natural tendency is to play tighter and tighter. (I now fold TT UTG most of the time.). The one thing that still really stings me at 5nl is the amount of calling stations with wildly high VPIPs who open limp, call off any raise and then hit monsters. Nothing like going to a river showdown vs a guy with 70 VP/ 5 PFR who is holding Aces or me deciding to play AJs hard against a 35/25 guy who actually had AK. I still haven't worked that out aside from the fact that when there is a limper in front I no longer will raise with the bottom of my range for that position (Say ATo from the button) as there is way too much slowplaying and limp/ re-raising going on.

Anyway not trying to hijack so enough for now.

 

[WVHillbilly]

To people who 3bet this preflop:

• do you play full ring? Yes.
• Do you play 50 or 100nl? Poorly perhaps but yes.
• do you fold to a 4bet or get it in? If the UTG opener shoves I fold (unless the flatter calls as well). If the flatter shoves, I call.
• do you think you fare well against the range an unknown FR player plays for stacks from UTG? Not particularly but I really don't want to play QQ OOP with lots of money left behind against 2 opponents. I think 3betting prevents me from making a bigger mistake postflop.

FWIW, the biggest winners at 100nl FR at the moment (QQ-quads-QQ and Paketa7) typically 3bet around 3% overall. I'm pretty sure they both flat with QQ here and so would I. I would 3bet it at 6max, I would 3bet it at 10nl FR, I would 3bet it at 400nl FR, but I really don't think that's the right play at 50nl FR.

In red above.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I'm pretty new to Poker but aside from hitting a set with a 9 what kind of flop could you be happy with with against someone who flatted 3bets OOP? (Assuming it's a decent player)? Are you bluffing an Ace high flop? Also with AQ & KQ if you hit you could have kicker problems or be against a set.

Well, you can't be 3betting AQ, KQ, 99 as a pure bluff as that would be a waste, so if you do decide to 3bet them, it should be for value.

If you decide to 3bet those hands against a specific villain, this decision should be based on your estimate that this specific villain will call with worse, i.e. that on average your kicker will be better than his when you flop a pair, that on average he will call you with pairs lower than 99. That means villain needs to have a loosish range before you 3bet him and call a lot of 3bets.

Typically someone decent won't be doing that, so you should not be 3betting those hands, but rather use a polarized range with true monsters and air, while keeping AQ and the like in your flatting range.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

At first I would call on the button with small pp's/ scs/ weak suited Aces but it seemed like a big leak, esp when I got some of the flop but not alot so I stopped doing it.

This is a bit a of thread hijack, but calling on the BTN with small pp, scs, suited aces, ... should be massively +EV. Provided you play them properly.

When villain's range is tight and strong, you should mostly call with small pp's and play somewhat fit or fold.

When villain's range is loose and therefore weak, you should mostly call with suited connectors and suite aces, then use your position to play them aggressively postflop, especially when you flop a good chunk of equity, provided villain has a fold button. You can't rely on card equity alone to make those hands profitable, you also need to use fold equity.

If villain is too brain dead to realize folding is possible, then indeed you should mostly be playing high cards and value betting the hell out of them when you hit the flop, while giving up on scs and low suited aces.

So essentially, you need to think about villain more than about your cards when playing those hands in order to make them +EV.