$50 NLHE Heads-up: so i wanna call a triple barrel with a pair of 3's...

[duggs]

stop fighting, Dream put up or shut up. Messiah please post more i find this all very interesting

 

[JCgrind]

hahahhahaha what a hand. so much to respond to.

i wont tell you what the results were just yet because discussion is fun, but i will tell you that i thought about it for like 2 seconds before snapping him off.

I love how these hero call threads always go from calling a huge 3bet preflop for "sick implied odds" to calling with 3rd pair on the river because villain can never have anything! Pretty hard to have it both ways.

Fold pre.

i didnt say that. i said that im very sceptical of him actually having a monster with that sizing, since i doubt he raises that much with like QQ+ pre, (could be like TT/JJ), but then even if im wrong, and he is infact doing it with a big pair, then i have implieds

stop being such a nit, im not folding suited connectors HU IP deep

Super sick river, made me throw up abit URGHHHHHHHHHHH kind of makes me want to call too coz his line makes no sense now, he should be x/c'ing overpairs now OTR right, unless he is some crazy cat that can vbet OP's here? he could have 9x which is a real posibility otherwise ye this line makes no sense, URGHHH still want to fold but URGGGGGGH JCHOOP why did you make me see this hand haha, gayest spot ever. Could go either way really, however he could know you are calling super wide and therefore just betting everything so im leaning to a call tbh, sick spot Jchoop, thought it was only me who got these spots

i dont think river is sick, i think its like the best card ever bar 4s, 3s, 5s, obv.

Re thinking this based on a few things OMG said ie, he knows Choop, i think shoving OTR is just lovely, means he folds everything but 9x and puts him in the worst spot with AA which he will fold some of the time anyway (or should be doing)

i dont like this at all, bc if he really is smart enough to value bet TT+ OTR, then hes smart enough to know i will go over the top much more often with air than with a hand, so he still calls.

explain to me why he cant have AA/KK here and be vbetting v your 88/77/1010/A6hh/A3hh or b/c river since you are agg and will be raising this river as a bluff some % as a bluff.

i think you already got a nice answer to this, but i just want to add that im 4bing all the mid pairs, so theyre not really in my percieved range either.

 

[JCgrind]

i would not called the 43s with the 3bet cause depend on his 3bet range you would of been behind anyway cause he could of be doing with AK-AT, KQ-KJ and any pair. the fact that you flop bottom 2 pair with a draw good but with the 3bet i would of folded and waited for a better spot.

oh ye and lol. never flopped bottom 2.
HU4ROLLZ w messiah now plz, link me the rail ID.

 

[The Messiah]

stop fighting, Dream put up or shut up. Messiah please post more i find this all very interesting

I think ive said pretty much all I can about the hand at this stage(unless theres something you want me to expand on, were I havent made myself clear), tbh id like to hear jc's opinion at this stage..

 

[duggs]

I think ive said pretty much all I can about the hand at this stage(unless theres something you want me to expand on, were I havent made myself clear), tbh id like to hear jc's opinion at this stage..

right iv got some tangents ill wait until hand is finished to ask.

 

[JCgrind]

About the only thing I have to add to my above post for others to think about is whether they make the call OTR with 88 or TT, because that's what I might as well have here, excluding when he's turning some small pair hand into a bluff which I rly can't see happening all that often bc like 55 and AA are basically the same hand for him OTR too (ie if I check back river, he always looses bc I have SD value and that can't be anything 55 beats, and if I bet the river, it's 9s and boats some small % of the time and busted draws the other % (probably more air than 9s/boats, so I think in his spot c/cing 55 OTR is great)

And hear my opinion on what messiah? You've pretty much explained my entire line of thinking for this hand just in a much more thorough manner than I did in the OP

 

[The Messiah]

About the only thing I have to add to my above post for others to think about is whether they make the call OTR with 88 or TT, because that's what I might as well have here, excluding when he's turning some small pair hand into a bluff which I rly can't see happening all that often bc like 55 and AA are basically the same hand for him OTR too (ie if I check back river, he always looses bc I have SD value and that can't be anything 55 beats, and if I bet the river, it's 9s and boats some small % of the time and busted draws the other % (probably more air than 9s/boats, so I think in his spot c/cing 55 OTR is great)

And hear my opinion on what messiah? You've pretty much explained my entire line of thinking for this hand just in a much more thorough manner than I did in the OP

Lol, at the 1mil comments that were left, but you already responded when I left that post.
What was game flow lk(were there many showdown)did you catch him doing similar before, are you as much of a station as your perceived????

 

[duggs]

1/ whats your 4betting range here for value and as a bluff?

2/ what is our percieved range on river?

3/ what exactly are his air hands that you think he is tripling off with?

4/ whats his value range on river?
5/how does that change when he bets 20? or 50?

 

[JCgrind]

1/ whats your 4betting range here for value and as a bluff?

2/ what is our percieved range on river?

3/ what exactly are his air hands that you think he is tripling off with?

4/ whats his value range on river?
5/how does that change when he bets 20? or 50?

1. Preflop? Like 88+ (but he prob doesn't know I would that light, he prob thinks JJ+), AJs+, AQo+ for value. A2-AT most times, 67-9Ts occasionally as a bluff and sometimes 22-55 (but he definitely wouldn't doesn't know that)

2. 22-TT, 67/78/89/T9, 68/79/8T, J9/Q9/K9/A9

3. AQo, AKo, or more likely I think suited hearts over cards good enough to 3b like ATs+, KQs. I get that that's a tight range, but it totally makes sense with his betting pattern (I had him on like AhJh by the river), where he's looking to build a pot bc he has so many outs with the overs and a flush draw, but then bricks the river and is like "****, now what?" (c/r as a bluff obv optimal, but board is too scary since by river it hits my snap 3b shove range so hard lol)

4. Honestly don't think he has a value bet range OTR, hence why I snap called. If he does, it's like 99 only I think, unless he like 3b 98s or some shit all of a sudden since I hadn't seen him do any of that (obv a terrible idea vs me when you're OOP)

5. I think the smaller, the more likely that it's an overpair, since he'll expect me to raise it with my air, and pretty much has to think that I'll call it with like a random 6 or like 77/88 or something since I'm getting valued in so massively.

The bigger he bets though (capped up to pot size) the more % I think he's bluffing, since I dont think he's good enough to play value hands into me like that

 

[JCgrind]

I also think that my range OTR is more skewed to value hands than random small-med pairs that are hanging on, so I don't think he can bet bc he's scared to lose value, since most of my range can't call and he's in the worst spot ever if I raise river since im all ****ing over that board

 

[JCgrind]

Lol, at the 1mil comments that were left, but you already responded when I left that post.
What was game flow lk(were there many showdown)did you catch him doing similar before, are you as much of a station as your perceived????

Wasn't many showdowns, but i was taking down every pot postflop for a while til there were a couple where he'd Caught me like c/c flop, c turn then he'd c back, I'd bet river with like totally random air hands that i never shouldve got to a river with and he'd call with like tpnk, mid pair stuff. Mostly if was me tripling vs him and him having to fold, or me floating flop raising turn and him having to fold type hands. I can definitely see this hand being him just tripling air out of frustration of that and not wanting to have to c/f.
Stupid tilt monkey. c/r works bro! lol.

I'm always a station pre so yes, and I get to a ton of rivers

 

[JCgrind]

I'm really curious as to whether wvh actually reads any of this stuff after his initial "L2Fold pre", and if so, what he has to say, if anything about all the post flop stuff weve been talking about

 

[duggs]

pm him and ask

 

[WVHillbilly]

I'm really curious as to whether wvh actually reads any of this stuff after his initial "L2Fold pre", and if so, what he has to say, if anything about all the post flop stuff weve been talking about

Of course I do. I just don't generally comment on it unless it changes my opinion. Nothing here has changed my mind that folding pre is 100% best. SPR is only about 13 after he 3bets so big. We're just never going to make enough back long term to justify calling preflop.

If you want to know what I'd do as played? Probably call the river but really I'd have never seen the flop.

 

[JCgrind]

Of course I do. I just don't generally comment on it unless it changes my opinion. Nothing here has changed my mind that folding pre is 100% best. SPR is only about 13 after he 3bets so big. We're just never going to make enough back long term to justify calling preflop.

If you want to know what I'd do as played? Probably call the river but really I'd have never seen the flop.

Out of curiosity, what SPR would we want before making the call because tbh I have no idea what SPR I'd need if he has 55+, or two overs (I assume it would change between the two). I was thinking it would be x15-20 times the raise (like set mining) but honestly don't know a thing about it

 

[WVHillbilly]

I'd say an SPR of 20 to 25 with small suited connectors against any decent type reg although you have to watch out that then you may only get stacks in when you're beat.

An SPR of 13 (like we have here) is 3 pot sized bets and if your villain is bad enough to put it all in with say TPTK or an overpair on bad boards (the ones that hit your connectors) you can probably turn a profit there. A reg though is going to fold those hands or look to take a street off a decent percentage of the time so you need to be able to win more to justify the call preflop imo.

 

[JCgrind]

Cool cheers. So would you want a higher SPR than 20-25 when we're OOP then? To account for the times when we Bluff out opponents which is obv easier done IP. Since we'd be able to mitigate our losses more when were IP, we would not have to win as big a pot when we stack when we're IP as opposed to OOP.

(obv were never calling 43s to a 3b when we're OOP, but yeah)

Wow that was so poorly worded.. Hope you get what I mean

 

[WVHillbilly]

Yeah OOP I don't think it really matters how deep you are tbh.

 

[JCgrind]

agreed. cheers

 

[JCgrind]

thought people might have more to say but obv not.

vil rolled AQo high.

 

[Newschool]

Call with 33, fold AJ =)