WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
In the hand posted or in general?
In the hand it's not only that there are 2 heavy 3betters, it's also that one of them doesn't fold post.
Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
Well yeah but we have like 6:1 to make a hand (and 4:1 to flop draw) with a suited 1-gapper and presumably he's gonna pay us off for his stack really often. Your IOs there are super good.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
No they are not. He's going to 3bet too often preflop and we're going to have to fold. Honestly I've read your take on SCs several times and I'd be AMAZED if you were even close to winning with them if you play them as often as you seem to suggest.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Well, here is my $0.02
I don't like 5-7s preflop. However, OP raised LP with it. So we flop a good draw.... But if a heart shows up on turn, it will be a very tough spot, especially if that heart completes the straight draw...
Why not check behind against a LAG? Why are we trying to build a pot with 7 high? Play small-ball and check behind. Don't bet until you complete your draw. You are just opening the door for the LAG to check raise.
This is my humble opinion.
I don't like 5-7s preflop. However, OP raised LP with it. So we flop a good draw.... But if a heart shows up on turn, it will be a very tough spot, especially if that heart completes the straight draw...
Why not check behind against a LAG? Why are we trying to build a pot with 7 high? Play small-ball and check behind. Don't bet until you complete your draw. You are just opening the door for the LAG to check raise.
This is my humble opinion.
Deco
Legend
Silver Level
In general I can't think of a spot I'd ever reduce my opening range so much I'd ditch 57s. Well for 100bbs I'd ditch it against a super aggro 20bb stack as the suitedness means nothing to me so I'd swap it out for more 89o, Q7o sort of hands.
Him not folding preflop is based on 3 hands, the BBs 3bet% isn't particulary high and the SBs is based on very few hands. Even if all these things were converged I still open. Against a really heavy 3better this is even near the top of my folding range when 3bet. It's ability to flop draws means we're given plenty of oppurtunity to double barrel someone who is stubborn on the flop.
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
Personally I'd drop hands like this as well as 22-66 vs. this guy in the blinds and look to play more hands that make top pair. On the edges I think it's more about comfort and playability and floppability rather than pure equity; barreling is nice but the most likely hand we make with the lower speculative hands is going to be a bottom/4th pair.
Deco
Legend
Silver Level
I think people generally over adjust to being 3bet. When min opening to make a profit from any two cards we need both villains to fold 75% (assuming we have 0 equity). This is surprisngly easy to find amongst regs. Even regs who 3bet loads aren't far off this and we actually need less than than 75% as when we are called we have equity.
The reg above I play with regulary. He 3bets 10.2% and a whopping 18% vs button opens. Yet his Fold to steal is 70%, not far off a profit from any two cards despite his 18% 3bet, when I look at his FTS from the BB it is 78%.
This guy is not a completly fair example as he flats less than he should but it illustrates my point well. Against someone who is 3betting alot and flatting alot we still have little need to reduce our opening below 40%.
This is my tightened button opening range vs very heavy 3betters:
This is my defending range against said heavy 3better:
It's rare to find someone who 3bets loads and doesn't fold to 4bets much, but in the cases they do I'd swap out alot of the Ax for more suited flats and be 4betting alot of the pairs I'd normally be flatting.
Villain needs us to fold 65% of the time to make a profit 3betting any two cards, I'm only folding 36% of the time. I'm not being exploiting by including 57s in my range and I could probably profitably widen my range some more.
The reg above I play with regulary. He 3bets 10.2% and a whopping 18% vs button opens. Yet his Fold to steal is 70%, not far off a profit from any two cards despite his 18% 3bet, when I look at his FTS from the BB it is 78%.
This guy is not a completly fair example as he flats less than he should but it illustrates my point well. Against someone who is 3betting alot and flatting alot we still have little need to reduce our opening below 40%.
This is my tightened button opening range vs very heavy 3betters:
This is my defending range against said heavy 3better:
It's rare to find someone who 3bets loads and doesn't fold to 4bets much, but in the cases they do I'd swap out alot of the Ax for more suited flats and be 4betting alot of the pairs I'd normally be flatting.
Villain needs us to fold 65% of the time to make a profit 3betting any two cards, I'm only folding 36% of the time. I'm not being exploiting by including 57s in my range and I could probably profitably widen my range some more.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
J
js520
Rock Star
Silver Level
Deco, out of that defending range what are you 4betting and what are you flatting?
You are obviously much better post flop than me so I wouldn't be able profitably flat some of the hands you do in which case I would have to tighten up my opening range a lot tighter than you, so i'm guessing 75s would be borderline
You are obviously much better post flop than me so I wouldn't be able profitably flat some of the hands you do in which case I would have to tighten up my opening range a lot tighter than you, so i'm guessing 75s would be borderline
Deco
Legend
Silver Level
Depends on how much villain folds to 4bets and his sizing, as an average I'd go with:
4bet Bluffs: (Good blockers)
A2o-A9o
JT-KTo
QJo
Value 4bets: (Good equity)
99+, AK, AQ
Flat: (Can flop well/pretty sooted hands)
Everything else
A more conservative flatting range would fair fine villain is miles off from achieving the anywhere near 65%.
I should state this is an extreme range for someone 3betting button opens around 17-20% before you go flatting some of the weaker parts of that range. Although I should also mention folding to much to 3bets is a leak of mine and if I was to alter this range I'd likely widen it.
*75s isn't quite the bottom of my opening range, I'd far sooner drop 78o, K2s, Q6s, semi-connectors are great in flatted pots.
*The range above is an extreme example against someone 3betting 20% vs our open and flatting a wide range of hands, it's rare I'd tighten up this much and I'd never tighten up any further than this against full stacked villains.
*In the OP we've very little convergence on the SB and an average looking 3bet% on the BB, and nothing to suggest they flat super wide.
Folding 75s here isn't burning money or anything I personally just think it's an over-adjustment given our circumstances, the stats of the villains in this hand do not strike me as super worrying or nothing.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah I think OP just got himself into trouble with these suited one-gappers. This hand would need an awful lot of help from the board to be something. And position isn't that much of an advantage against a blaster.