$5 NLHE Full Ring: Did I make a bad move for the limit I was playing?

[chispa73]

$5 NL HE Full Ring: Did I make a bad move for the limit I was playing?

So after reviewing this hand I think I made a mistake in not sticking to ABC poker and just betting out to see where I was at. Instead I checked to the raiser but got raised by an unexpected person to my left. In hindsight, if I had just bet right off the bat I would've won the pot on the river. Let me know if you think my assessment is bad/good.

Stacks:
* MP2 with $2.01
* MP3 with $10.90
* CO with $0.67
* BTN with $2.08
* SB with $5.03
* BB with $3.37
* UTG with $1.48
* UTG+1 with $1.96
* MP1 with $0.95

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to SB:Q♠ J♣
* * Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
* * 5 players fold.
* * BTN raises to $0.15
* * Hero calls [$0.13]
* * BB calls [$0.10]
* * Total folds this street: 5
* * Potsize: $0.45
Flop:
* * K♦ 7♣ J♠
* * Hero checks
* * BB bets [$0.30]
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero calls [$0.30]
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: $1.05
Turn:
* * 5♥
* * Hero checks
* * BB checks
* * Potsize: $1.05
River:
* * A♦
* * Hero bets [$0.40]
* * BB calls [$0.40]
Results:


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[c9h13no3]

So after reviewing this hand I think I made a mistake in not sticking to ABC poker and just betting out to see where I was at. Instead I checked to the raiser but got raised by an unexpected person to my left. In hindsight, if I had just bet right off the bat I would've won the pot on the river. Let me know if you think my assessment is bad/good.

I think your assessment is bad.

Lets start with the first decision you made: Why did you call preflop?

 

[chispa73]

I'm playing small ball, protecting my blinds hoping to get a good flop, with a decent hand in a potential blind steal raise from the late position players.

 

[Tublecain]

Passive play Out Of Position = losing chips

First of all, I would like to emphasize that it is essentially almost never profitable to check/call all the way to the river out of position, especially at the micro stakes, unless you have the absolute nuts, and either think your opponent has a hand he's willing to continue hanging himself on, or think that he's willing to continue bluffing. Otherwise you're just bleeding chips while you pray for your outs (I've done it many times myself !) There are some other situations (if you are positive the villain is on a bluff or has a weaker hand he's willing to commit to), but they are much more difficult to identify and navigate skillfully.

Secondly I have to agree with c9 here, I don't think that smooth calling with a marginal hand out of position is a profitable call in most cases. When you have a marginal hand (QJo is definitely marginal), you have to find other ways to make give it strength (i.e. seize the initiative by raising, or make sure you're calling in position). Playing passively with a marginal hand = bleeding chips, in my experience. I don't know that much about small ball, but I do know that the same basic principles still apply (play in position, seize the initiative when you think you have the better hand).

It would seem to me that the only way calling out of position preflop would make sense in this context would be if you plan on being very aggressive post flop if you hit the flop in any way, and suspect his stealing range has missed completely; but you still have to be willing to get out fast if he continues his aggression. Otherwise you're basically praying to hit the flop like a train (top two pair, strong straight draw, etc), and folding otherwise (and middle pair-weak kicker definitely does not qualify as 'hitting like a train'). I would also add that a creative move like this (calling out of position with a marginal hand with the intention of bluffing a late-position stealer) are small ball strategies that generally only work against sophisticated players capable of thinking on a higher level; I've been playing $5NL for a while now, and there aren't too many players like that yet at these stakes.

If you think that his BTN raise is a steal here, you're better off finding out by 3 betting him preflop, before he has a chance to connect with the board; if he 4bets, you can get the heck out of dodge, and if he smoothcalls, you can wait for the flop and see if it might be profitable for you to lead out and scare him off. How you continue will depend on how hard you hit the flop, and how you think his range may have missed the flop, and you must be prepared to give up your play if he continues his aggression by raising.

If he calls your flop bet, you should either give up (check the turn with the intention of folding to any bet) or fire a second barrel on the turn if you think he's capable of folding here. Again, if he raises you on the turn get out, and if he calls, I would again suggest giving up on the hand to any river card that misses you. There's no point in betting the river if chances are you're already beat (2 smooth calls by a preflop raiser is starting to suggest a lot of strength).

All of this continues to be a very risky line in my opinion because you are out of position (especially in a micro stakes cash game, where we really don't get very much for stealing), but still potentially much more profitable than passive play.

Therefore, as played, I agree with you that taking the initiative on the flop and finding out if he was stealing or not would have been more profitable, but still risky for the reasons I outlined above. Another much more risky option would be to attempt a check-raise, showing massive strength. However, I still can think of any number of hands who would have attempted a steal from the BTN that have a K in them (K8-KJ, or Kxs), and because you already showed weakness the villain is probably not likely to let it go to sudden aggression. And if he happened to have KJ or K7s you're really in bad shape. This is in addition to the fact that at $5NL you still have a lot of people willing to go All In with Top Pair-Weak Kicker, and I would suspect that's exactly what he's holding here.

I hope that's helpful to you, best of luck out there!

T.

 

[chispa73]

Thanks T and C9! I hadn't thought about 3 betting him preflop. If I did then the BB might have folded or even if he called...a c-bet on the flop would have surely driven him out.

You are very correct about position though. I should have 3 bet to take the initiative and set up a last jab at the pot from the sb. The thing is that I don't want to 3 bet because that means I'm contributing more money to the pot. My whole thing is risk a little to get a lot. If I re-raise the guy, I'm going in for 3 times his bet at least. If he sticks around then now I have to put in a huge c-bet which might not work. If I control the size of the pot, my c-bet on the flop is much smaller with the same affect of a 3 bet preflop. I can then take your advice and give up on the turn. No more passive play post-flop. I will seize the initiative!

 

[slycbnew]

You are very correct about position though. I should have 3 bet to take the initiative and set up a last jab at the pot from the sb. The thing is that I don't want to 3 bet because that means I'm contributing more money to the pot. My whole thing is risk a little to get a lot.

Position is even more important if you're trying to play small pots, fold QJo in the sb pf, flat this on the btn if you're going to flat, and think about whether you're behind or ahead of others' ranges when you do want to flat. For example, if utg is hugely tight and opens utg, flatting QJo on the btn is questionable.

Think seriously about using a robust pf 3betting strategy, though. It's extremely profitable at micro cuz so many micro players call 3bets oop w junk and they suck at playing 3bet pots postflop.

Also, I see a lot of micro players using a full ring pf style of 22+/4 (i.e., limp or flat call alot of hands, only raise very stong hands - I don't know where you fit here, but this sounds like what you're describing) that just bleed chips away trying to use this smallball strategy. They really start to bleed chips when someone behind them starts raising behind them with a wide range whenever they limp/flat, cuz they start calling w marginal hands oop out of sheer frustration (which is why the other guy is raising w a wide range, to induce this). Be careful.

 

[chispa73]

Yeah I did forget to post that. Through 48 hands of being at my left, this guy was 17/0/.3 while I was at 23/17/3.0. But position is the key. I should only try this stunt when in position or with better cards if I do decide to play in the small blind. I was at a huge disadvantage against potentially two opponents.

For the record, he turned over A9o at the end...so I compounded my mistake on the river by finally betting out when the one card that would explain his checking on the turn came out for him to pair. Like a fool I thought I caught his bluff now I'm going to value bet 40-50% of the pot. I think if I hadn't bet though he would have raised me even more. I feel that he wasn't sure about his kicker.

Also, about 12 hands later I got him for about $2.00 when he called my AJo with A5s and he went all the way to the river with it. I actually thought about his A9 earlier and what he would call a raise with.

BTW...do you guys know any good articles or books that give good advice about 3 betting? It definitely seems like I need it in my arsenal.

 

[slycbnew]

https://www.cardschat.com/f49/move-beyond-hand-chart-3-bets-133959/

excellent article.

 

[Tublecain]

I'm glad the comments were helpful to you chispa. Position seems like a really simple concept on the face of it, but at least in my case it took me a long time to actually understand just how important it is. As for the 3bets, it was a big gap in my own repertoire as well; the article that sly linked to is very helpful to understanding the power of the 3bet. Best of luck to you!

T.

 

[PNJs_dad]

Awesome comments guys. I'm just starting out playing the cash games seriously at the low limits and all of these comments are helpful. Hopefully I can learn and become a profitable cash game player.

 

[chispa73]

Hey Sly, thanks for the link and C9 thanks for the article. I'm incorporating it into my game ($5NL) as we speak and I'm owning the table. Nobody wants to challenge me anymore. I'm in the 6-8% range for 3B% and my steal% is 36. My other stats are 25/21/3.5 so I don't think these guys know what to do with me anymore. They're just giving me their money at this point and nobody is even thinking about stealing my BB. My aggression went up a notch seeing Negreanu's small ball strategy and you guys have taken me to the next level with the 3bet strategy, thanks for your help!