$5 NLHE 6-max: BvB spot, get 3-bet and hit flop hard...

[KardKlub]

If you c/r the turn you get him to shove into a much bigger pot with a draw that is almost certainly beat. If your behind you still have alot of outs, and who's folding a set here anyway.

There is a lot of cooler cards on the turn that can kill the action for you but also they can give him more equity to do above.

who has hero on AK here? no one.

 

[cjatud2012]

If you c/r the turn you get him to shove into a much bigger pot with a draw that is almost certainly beat. If your behind you still have alot of outs, and who's folding a sethere anyway.

There is a lot of cooler cards on the turn that can kill the action for you but also they can give him more equity to do above.

who has hero on AK here? no one.

imo not many draws would shove on the turn (or even bet the turn to begin with, it'd be better to take the free card most of the time). Their equity is much less than it is on the flop, so, unless they thought they had a ton of fold equity (which is possible), shoving the turn with a draw wouldn't make much sense.

Deco is also correct in that a flop c/r is generally a lot less frightening than a turn c/r. I think the former is more likely to be called than the latter, since draws have more equity on the flop and two pair hands will be very scared at this point. Not to mention there is no guarantee villain will bet the turn for the c/r to take place (which is what happened when I actually played the hand).

 

[KardKlub]

I must be on a different planet. I'd never c/r a big hand like this. Bvb or not. You may as well turn your hand up. If your not shoving draws on the turn when you increase equity in your hand, then your loosung value against middle pair hands that just cantcall in certain spots. You'd have been giving him the last bet which is all some aggresive players need to get you off a hand. Remember he won't have you on a k.

But as I said had u c/r flop he would have folded anyway with the way the hand played out. It's just not a good board to cbet with. Any pair will call so if he was pot controlling he would save a street here. Simples

 

[WVHillbilly]

You're on the same planet you're just missing tons of value.

 

[Deco]

I must be on a different planet. I'd never c/r a big hand like this. Bvb or not. You may as well turn your hand up.

You hugely overestimate the average 5NL players hand reading skills. Plus people checkraise bluff paired boards all the time and there's plenty of draws here. If someone aggressive checkraised me here I'm never folding a jack and may even consider 3betting them if my hand sucks. (not at this stake though).

What people do wrong at the micros is they get a big hand and think:
"Lets make it look like I have a weak hand by checking"

1) Micro NL players aren't paying the slightest bit of attention to what our hand could be and they call way too much which is the leak we should be taking advantage off

2) When the time comes that we do need to balance our play generally we should be betting/raising our weak hands rather than checking/calling our strong hands

 

[KardKlub]

What people do wrong at the micros is they get a big hand and think:
"Lets make it look like I have a weak hand by checking"

Whats your point in this case then?

The guy c- bet a pretty hard flop to hit with a made hand but he bet into it anyway, he's not playing a big hand in disguse is he with what you say.

So had he hit he would check and try to get you to bet on the turn, when he would c/r.

So trying to get an extra bet from a hand that is bad compared to us by calling the flop is a good move, thats all im saying. In other spots a c/r would be good but not this hand in my opinion.

Plus im sure this guy is not that aggressive as in the opening post, he just doesn't know when he shouldn't c-bet crap on a two tone board.

Plus i don't think you ever need to balance at this level, ever. You just never run into the same people twice that often.

 

[baudib1]

I think you just donk this flop. The number of people who will bluff-raise because they will never believe you actually have it is pretty large.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Plus im sure this guy is not that aggressive as in the opening post, he just doesn't know when he shouldn't c-bet crap on a two tone board.

Villain should be cbetting that flop with his entire range which is why donking would cost us money.

 

[BenLZ]

I'm liking a check-call on the flop, but then again I don't play at 5NL. I don't really know the players play, but you need to assume your hand is best and a check-call allows you to keep the action if he's gonna keep barreling. I wouldn't really want to scare him off with a c/r...but then again I'm not a 5NL player...I don't know how their minds work.

 

[c9h13no3]

How the hell are there 33 replies to an absolutely standard spot. If you don't check/raise this flop you hate money. After WV's first reply to this thread, all other replies that aren't agreeing with him should begin with "I don't understand poker, so could you please explain to me why...."

 

[WVHillbilly]

How the hell are there 33 replies to an absolutely standard spot. If you don't check/raise this flop you hate money. After WV's first reply to this thread, all other replies that aren't agreeing with him should begin with "I don't understand poker, so could you please explain to me why...."

That's exactly how I read them.

 

[BenLZ]

How the hell are there 33 replies to an absolutely standard spot. If you don't check/raise this flop you hate money. After WV's first reply to this thread, all other replies that aren't agreeing with him should begin with "I don't understand poker, so could you please explain to me why...."

It's really an outrage.

 

[c9h13no3]

It's really an outrage.

You know, it kinda is. There are lots of posts out there that are tricky spots but don't have many replies.

And yet somehow this one gets a ton of replies. Think about it:

You're in a 3-bet pot, which means your opponent's hands are weighted towards pairs 99+, and broadway hands like QJ+, KQ+, AT+. All of those hands have either a pair, a straight draw, a flush draw, trips, or a full house. ALL OF THEM. VILLAIN'S ENTIRE RANGE HAS HIT THIS BOARD. Plus, its a great board to check/raise bluff blind vs. blind, so villain will give us even less credit and will continue even lighter.

And donk betting is horrible, because villain will c-bet these board textures 100% of the time. There is no better spot to check/raise. And thus if you don't do it here, you're not ever check/raising. And if you're never check/raising, you hate money, because its a great way to bloat the pot OOP when you're opponent is very likely to bet.

[/rant]

 

[BenLZ]

I don't like c/r my very strong hands. It comes off too strong. The c-bet tells us basically nothing, but I would agree with your assumption of his range. I think its difficult to judge here since we have no information about villain. There are many overly aggressive players who will just keep betting into you with this flop with 22+ and you can extract a ton of value. I'm just looking for value here, and c/r may be the correct move based on who the villain is. I'm just saying some people play pocket pairs like they're aces and they'll just keep going at it.

I don't play at 5NL but I've noticed c/r tend to kill action. They're probably the strongest move in poker. You may very well be right in this situation, we play differently, and neither of us know villain. The reason these threads get so few responses is because it's tough to pass judgment on unknown villains or stakes we haven't played at. My strategy may be a little riskier since I'm allowing a free card. And to the OP, even if you aren't using PT3 or HEM you can still look up opponents on poker-edge.com and get a feel for how they play. I do this all the time so I can go into the game with an idea of their style.

 

[Deco]

What people do wrong at the micros is they get a big hand and think:
"Lets make it look like I have a weak hand by checking"

Whats your point in this case then?

The guy c- bet a pretty hard flop to hit with a made hand but he bet into it anyway, he's not playing a big hand in disguse is he with what you say.

I was referring to your slowplay line rather than his c-bet.

 

[Deco]

You know, it kinda is. There are lots of posts out there that are tricky spots but don't have many replies.


[/rant]

don't
Fair anuth

have
I saw the word 'Cap' and then closed the window.

many
Not a tough spot

I agree with what your saying completely I just feel like being a *****

 

[KardKlub]

How the hell are there 33 replies to an absolutely standard spot. If you don't check/raise this flop you hate money. After WV's first reply to this thread, all other replies that aren't agreeing with him should begin with "I don't understand poker, so could you please explain to me why...."

I never think outside the box too.

Harrington etc says blah blah blah

 

[KardKlub]

I was referring to your slowplay line rather than his c-bet.

c/r the turn doesn't constitute slow play. were still going to be all in before the river if villain has something, if not you get a extra bet vala

 

[KardKlub]

You know, it kinda is. There are lots of posts out there that are tricky spots but don't have many replies.

And yet somehow this one gets a ton of replies. Think about it:

You're in a 3-bet pot, which means your opponent's hands are weighted towards pairs 99+, and broadway hands like QJ+, KQ+, AT+. All of those hands have either a pair, a straight draw, a flush draw, trips, or a full house. ALL OF THEM. VILLAIN'S ENTIRE RANGE HAS HIT THIS BOARD. Plus, its a great board to check/raise bluff blind vs. blind, so villain will give us even less credit and will continue even lighter.


[/rant]

why would you ever 3-bet suited broadways against a sb raiser. they play so well post flop ip and you don't want to be 4 bet with them. Remember you should raise hands that you think he has that dominate you post flop but call with hands that you dominate him with. Your loosing tonnes of value other wise.

 

[Deco]

why would you ever 3-bet suited broadways against a sb raiser. they play so well post flop ip and you don't want to be 4 bet with them. Remember you should raise hands that you think he has that dominate you post flop but call with hands that you dominate him with. Your loosing tonnes of value other wise.

What we should be doing and what are opponent is going to do are two very different things.
C9 weren't saying this is optimum play he was merely saying this guy will have them in his range.

 

[Deco]

c/r the turn doesn't constitute slow play. were still going to be all in before the river if villain has something, if not you get a extra bet vala

Check raising the turn is THE slow play line. Beluga Theorem anyone.

 

[KerouacsDog]

bookmark, will read later