25nl KQ for TP in limped pot

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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No info on villain as he/she's only been sitting for like 4 hands. What's our plan for the hand here? These may be simple spots for others but I suck postflop and can never figure out what to do in marginal-ish spots like this. I don't want to bloat the pot but I feel my hand's good a large portion of the timehere. Villain also seems set on swelling the pot.

I also realize raising pf will make my decisions much easier, I just decided to limp this one after too many steals vs the limpers.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed)

Hero ($24.75)
BB ($18.05)
UTG ($51.10)
MP1 ($13.60)
MP2 ($10.55)
CO ($23.75)
Button ($13.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q
heart.gif
, K
diamond.gif
.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button calls $0.25, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) Q
spade.gif
, 8
heart.gif
, 3
spade.gif
(4 players)
Hero bets $0.75, BB folds, MP1 folds, Button raises to $3, Hero ...
 
J

jeffred1111

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Apr 16, 2007
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I put villain all-in right there and get a call from worse Ks, small pp a lot. This can be a FD acting up a lot of time and trying to buy a free card (the limp, raise donkbet is SC or weak K more than anything else). Two pairs/set is pretty rare and this isn't a marginal spot by any mean.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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$1 invested in TP; I'd fold and wait for some reads of this player.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I put villain all-in right there and get a call from worse Ks, small pp a lot. This can be a FD acting up a lot of time and trying to buy a free card

$1 invested in TP; I'd fold and wait for some reads of this player.

And herein lies the dilemma. I don't know if I should repop to protect against a draw (or get full value from smaller hands) or if I should shut down, try to keep the pot small, or even fold.

tbh I don't really like either of your suggestions :D Pushing villain in here seems very spewy to me as he could easily be on a weird two pair, set or combo draw. Hell, maybe even AQ. The phrase "never go broke in an unraised pot" immediately comes to mind...

Folding also just sounds too weak to me. Limping KQ then folding to a flop raise on a drawy Q-high board...meh

Here's how the actual hand played out; I'll post the results later but I'm still not sure how to go about these types of hands in general...must work on postflop play :icon_geek

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed)

Hero ($24.75)
BB ($18.05)
UTG ($51.10)
MP1 ($13.60)
MP2 ($10.55)
CO ($23.75)
Button ($13.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q
heart.gif
, K
diamond.gif
.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button calls $0.25, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) Q
spade.gif
, 8
heart.gif
, 3
spade.gif
(4 players)
Hero bets $0.75, BB folds, MP1 folds, Button raises to $3, Hero calls $2.25.

Turn: ($7) T
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3, Hero calls $3.

River: ($13) 7
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $13
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
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Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
At this point I think your hand is good; $3 bet into $7, the check on the flush river; I think he's afraid you might have filled your flush. If he had a set or 2 pair I would have expected a bigger turn bet against the flush draw but I think he's afraid of your flop call.


Playing this like a WA/WB situation after your original flop bet?
 
J

jeffred1111

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Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
As I said, two pairs her is pretty rare and I really, really dislike the c/c turn since you're giving away the hand on a drawy flop and that T only filled up J9 wich is a small part of his range. Push everything in the middle on the turn.

And please, unless proven wrong, you should not expect AQ to show up here.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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And please, unless proven wrong, you should not expect AQ to show up here.


AQ is definitely a possibility. Not very probable, but still in his range.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Qs Js]
KIDNIC: folds
richmhv: folds
lemmmon: folds
arizonajason: calls $0.25
ChuckTs: raises $0.75 to $1
raypatt: folds
random50: folds
arizonajason: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [7d Qc 6c]
arizonajason: bets $2.25
ChuckTs: calls $2.25
*** TURN *** [7d Qc 6c] 3♦
arizonajason: bets $2
ChuckTs: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [7d Qc 6c 3d] 8♣
arizonajason: checks
ChuckTs: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
arizonajason: shows [As Qd] (a pair of Queens)
ChuckTs: mucks hand

Not disagreeing with you shoving though. Still not sure about this.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I'm very surprised he'd limp AQ OTB and all things considered I think you obv played it optimally. Very well done.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I'm very surprised he'd limp AQ OTB and all things considered I think you obv played it optimally. Very well done.

fwiw that was a different hand. Just an example where I remembered my opponent playing AQo v passively and it applied to jeffred's post obv.
 
J

jeffred1111

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792
Yeah, but even then, AQ is a very small part of his range and he tried to tarp you with it in the other hand + I don't expect somone who limps AQ OTB to change gears/adapt his play after showing something. The fact that the hand is playing differently makes me confident we are in front and will get payed if we put him AI on turn.

I'm thinking you were c/f this river ?
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I think you played it fine. Check the turn for pot control, and obviously you're not folding for less than half pot. I don't think it's possible to put your opponent squarely on a draw and shove, so I'd just call the turn.

Also, I don't like raising this from the SB - completing like you did is best. (On the button is a different story of course...)
 
J

jeffred1111

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792
I think you played it fine. Check the turn for pot control, and obviously you're not folding for less than half pot. I don't think it's possible to put your opponent squarely on a draw and shove, so I'd just call the turn.

Also, I don't like raising this from the SB - completing like you did is best. (On the button is a different story of course...)
Am I the only one to notice that Button is medium stacked (13$) and that we're very often getting a scare card that will freeze villain or us up ? The pot is at 13$ on the turn if we call, might as well play for the remaining 7$ now that we can. Thus, I still very much like my shove. The only time calling this is profitable is if he is bluffing and planning on three barreling because calling means we can't donk (might as well go AI on turn) and he probably checks behind the whole range of hands we beat while he bets anhything we don't (and can we really fold then ?).

And we have KQo, I very much like a raise preflop since it does not play well multiway in a limped pot and we get added FE to our c-bet by raising. KQs I might just call.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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He could be semi-bluffing the turn, or making a bad value-bet with QJ... admittedly the range of non-drawing hands we beat isn't very big. I think going all-in is probably just a bit risky given that we have a medium strength hand, he raised the flop and won't fold anything we beat. If you think he's on a draw, which he would have to be to make pushing the turn profitable, let him bluff on the river. If he makes his flush and bets, it's cheaper for you because you can then fold.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I'm thinking you were c/f this river ?

Nope:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed)

Hero ($24.75)
BB ($18.05)
UTG ($51.10)
MP1 ($13.60)
MP2 ($10.55)
CO ($23.75)
Button ($13.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q
heart.gif
, K
diamond.gif
.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Button calls $0.25, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) Q
spade.gif
, 8
heart.gif
, 3
spade.gif
(4 players)
Hero bets $0.75, BB folds, MP1 folds, Button raises to $3, Hero calls $2.25.

Turn: ($7) T
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3, Hero calls $3.

River: ($13) 7
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: $13

(villain showed down Q6o)

And we have KQo, I very much like a raise preflop since it does not play well multiway in a limped pot and we get added FE to our c-bet by raising. KQs I might just call.

It does fine multiway as long as I don't commit too many chips with my one pair hands (hint hint :)). I agree that raising is fine too - I'm doing it most of the time if not because KQ isn't great multiway then because of the value of just picking up that dead money.

Like I said in the Q9s thread though, I haven't fared too well recently with squeezes and needed to slow down a bit with them as they're a big reason I've been getting downswings. Not to mention being OOP against a bunch of calling stations.
 
J

jeffred1111

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792
He could be semi-bluffing the turn, or making a bad value-bet with QJ... admittedly the range of non-drawing hands we beat isn't very big. I think going all-in is probably just a bit risky given that we have a medium strength hand, he raised the flop and won't fold anything we beat. If you think he's on a draw, which he would have to be to make pushing the turn profitable, let him bluff on the river. If he makes his flush and bets, it's cheaper for you because you can then fold.

Agree to disagree since folding once you have called the turn and the flush card hits is asking to get run over OOP and he does not have the flush often enough for folding to be +EV methinks (he will bet 7$ in a 13$ pot, laying us 3:1 wich is favorable). Remember that this is a limped pot against a bad villain, we should not be concerned by our kicker here since this particular villain thinks QJ is the nuts here on the flop and probably on the turn. Plus, again, villain has very little left in comparison to the pot (1/2 the pot) so I make him pay for his stupid FD or Str8 draw and don't let him show me down Qx for cheap. We're not playing against a good villain here, we do get calls from him with worse Q's (or even 8's and T's) thinking we're bluffing him.

The we won't fold anything we beat and get called by everything that beats us gets thrown around a lot nowadays and this time I don't think it applies. We are in a situation where we have an equity edge since villain is showing up with crap pair a lot and draws a lot. We should exploit that edge in this situation because that flop raise is meaningless and the turn bet is weak-sauce + villain has almost nothing left.

Against a villain who had us covered, yes, calling for pot control is good (since he is actually pricing himself out of his draw by betting it and if he has us beat, we save), but calling here commits us anyway to call his AI.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I suppose I just don't play in games where people will call off their whole stack with top pair bad kicker...
 
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