$25NL 6-max: Shens Postflop with Garbage OTB

[c9h13no3]

I don't care if you guys don't like bluffing hands, since their read based, but I'm bored of seeing "I has aces, whats do I doz?" threads. Plus, these plays are probably how I lose the most money .


CO is a 25/22/30%(2.0) reg over 600 hands.
Steal % = 39%

SB is a 79/21 terribad fish over 39 hands.

CO: $45.61 (182.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $37.19 (148.8 bb)
SB: $27.51 (110 bb)
BB: $12.37 (49.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with 8

5

CO raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, SB calls $0.75, BB folds

Flop: ($2.80) 4

K

T

(3 players)
SB bets $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $3.35

Neither player has dick after the action on the flop, no?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Agreed. Likely trying to get a cheap shot at a draw. I almost always make a pot sized bet when someone donks into me for the min bet. I don't know that I like it as much with two others in the hand, but I say you take it on the flop often enough for this bet to be profitable (assuming you don't keep barreling if called).

 

[Richyl2008]

I wouldn't mind making this play against just the CO here. The small blind in the hand makes this play less likely to work I think. It's obvious that he has something here when he donks into 2 players. The most likely hands he could have imo, are flush/straight draws, a king, a 10, maybe 88-99 or a pair + draw.

I don't think he will fold hardly any of these hands except for maybe some of the smaller pocket pairs or a 10. If you have a note that he likes to donk small and fold I don't mind it as much. If he snap calls the flop, or calls and donks again on the turn, I'm done with this hand. He probably either has a draw that he's not folding or a weakish hand that he thinks is best. I don't think the flop raise is bad,since it only has to work half the time, but if it gets to the turn your risk/reward is not going to be very good trying to push him out, especially if he's the type that calls too much.

Against the CO, I think it's pretty obvious he has less than top pair most of the time when he just calls the minbet on the flop, unless he's really creative and thinks you will squeeze. I wouldn't mind double barreling a safe card against him on the turn, because he is a better player that will probably fold out some draws and pairs weaker than top pair.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Preflop is extremely loose. I understand you like to play your position on the BTN, but calling a raise from a decent reg with 85o is a little bit over the top, i think.

Post flop I kind of like your play, provided you don't overdo it. A lot of 25nl fishes with donk minbet and fold to a raise in this spot. But if you do this too often, even fishes will start to notice. CO is a bit of extra worry, but i wouldn't mind too much about him yet.

P.S. This is post # 999, so i'll have to stop posting for a while and think about my 1K post.

 

[c9h13no3]

Preflop is extremely loose. I understand you like to play your position on the BTN, but calling a raise from a decent reg with 85o is a little bit over the top, i think.

I call with all sorts of garbage in position against opponents who play very straightforwardly postflop.

It's obvious that he has something here when he donks into 2 players.

I think you REALLY give smack-tards way too much credit. If he calls and donks the turn again, I'll prolly call, and bet a non-diamond, non-A, non-9 river. Or that's my plan for the hand anyways. Not even bad players bet the minimum with a hand they think is best. They're probing for information, and I'm giving them information. That, and they just don't like checking since it looks weak. But I'd say these donk bets are actually weaker than a check.

 

[jeffred1111]

You can argue about calling here all you want, it is still hella loose and I doubt it is profitable @ 25 NL. I can see it being a valuable play once opponents start thinking about how you usually play your strong/medium/weak hands (and you do that with very decent draws or uber nuts for implied), but against two op and maybe three (BB folded) it is spewy. I would've liked raising here better and folding best (+1000). Calling was weak sauce.

Now onto the flop. There's a very good chance neither has squat here, appart from a diamond/str8 draw. I don't know about you, but I doubt that the CO would've taken this line with a set or high pair (=no). This leaves us with either two guys drawing (or min-bet being a set wich is somewhat unlikely since TT-KK usually reraise) or SB trying to buy the pot with nothing or TPNK, MPNK.

In this scenario raising is decent, but really, what are you trying to rep here that the CO won't take as dubious ? Also, what is your line on the turn if SB calls ? CO can't call without something good at this point due to him being a non-fishy reg @ 25 NL.

 

[Irexes]

No need for the preflop action at all, after that it's about minimizing how much you lose in the long run, rather than how you win. Which is of course entirely the wrong way round.

 

[c9h13no3]

In this scenario raising is decent, but really, what are you trying to rep here that the CO won't take as dubious ?

I regularly call behind with KQ, KJ, maybe even KTs. Not to mention there's no reason for the CO to think I'm bluffing since I'm firing into the fish. The CO's range here is air, and that's pretty much it, since he would be betting any hand for value against the fish.

This comes down to wether the SB will fold often enough for this move to be profitable. These min-bets are often stupid weak, and I raise them regardless of wether I have a hand or not almost always, with good fold equity.

And I already said what I'd do if the SB called.

And you guys seem to take huge offense on calling pre with 85o. If this were 76s, you'd be like "standard call on the button", when in fact the equity differences between those hands are very minimal. Combine this with a good read that the CO is a straightforward player, and I make calls/3-bets here fairly often.

 

[Irexes]

And you guys seem to take huge offense on calling pre with 85o. If this were 76s, you'd be like "standard call on the button", when in fact the equity differences between those hands are very minimal. Combine this with a good read that the CO is a straightforward player, and I make calls/3-bets here fairly often.

Do you want comments on your hands or not?

 

[c9h13no3]

Do you want comments on your hands or not?

How in any way does disagreeing with you mean that I don't want comments on my hands? I thought this was a discussion?

 

[Irexes]

And you guys seem to take huge offense on calling pre with 85o.

I don't take "huge offense", it's just clearly a losing long-term play which renders discussion of the post-flop pretty much moot.

If you want a discussion then respond to my comment, don't project an emotional reaction on my part in your reply.

And there's a big difference in the EV of 76s and 85o here. You are going to win a number of big pots with 76s, it's seldom happening with 85o and not just because it's suited.

Entering this pot for bluff value, smacks of fancy play syndrome.

 

[c9h13no3]

Entering this pot for bluff value, smacks of fancy play syndrome.

It sorta is. But I'm combining the value of position + a player who can easily be bluffed/read + a hand that does have some equity to try and make this a winning play.

And god, stop being so emo. And you know exactly what I mean.

 

[Irexes]

And god, stop being so emo. And you know exactly what I mean.

Yup, I do.

 

[deadhxc]

I think it is safe to say no one hit on the flop (maybe SB hit a T) and your bet may scare them off of it. BUT, I would run away from it if you get called or raised.

 

[feitr]

post flop is pretty standard as CO obviously whiffed and sb could have anything.

Hate the preflop call tho...fish is clearly coming along everytime and vs a fish you absolutely want a hand with some sort of postflop equity. You have to absolutely own a game to make a call with 85o profitable here and in a 3 way pot, one of whom is a loose fish, it simply is not going to be a profitable play.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I call with all sorts of garbage in position against opponents who play very straightforwardly postflop.

If SB didn't exist then I'd be happy with this, but you can be pretty sure that SB is coming along and that leaves you with 85o in a raised pot against a predictable reg but also captain donkalot whose range is basically two cards and whose plays don't necessarily have to make sense, which is potentially awkward and can lead to chip spew like postflop (I don't really mind postflop that much if we're checking behind/calling a small turn bet and leading a blank river, but a lot of Kx/Tx hands are in his range and he's not folding them). Being in position counters the awkwardness a bit, but I still can't see it being profitable long-term given the table setup. I'd almost rather 3-bet pre to try and isolate against the predictable guy than call and have SB come along.

Call me predictable, but when I play pots with 79/21 players I want to have decent cards to do it with.

 

[c9h13no3]

Fair enough. I just don't really get wound up over calling preflop with 85o for a couple of reasons:

1) Position & my opponent, which I've already covered.
2) The opening raiser's range is very wide.
3) Its a small mistake in terms of equity.
4) I feel my postflop skills are good enough where I won't put a bunch of bets in on like a 348 flop, or anything like that.

The main downside of playing a hand like 85, is that its rarely going to be able to win a big pot, and its easy to make mistakes with it postflop. But I don't think the actual call itself preflop is *that* bad. Its just the mistakes that you make on later streets when playing weak hands like this that make 85o bad.

And yeah, I really should have thought about the fish in the big blind. It definitely makes things tougher to maneuver. But if he hadn't been there, I'd like my call on the button 150bb's deep vs. a predictable opponent.

P.S. - Dorkus, stop posting faster than me. :|


P.P.S. - I also don't post hands here because I think the moves I make are good or bad, or because I want advice. I post because I'm trying to stimulate discussion, so that usually means posting a hand with some controversial plays in it.

 

[jeffred1111]

Fair enough. I just don't really get wound up over calling preflop with 85o for a couple of reasons:

1) Position & my opponent, which I've already covered.
2) The opening raiser's range is very wide.
3) Its a small mistake in terms of equity.
4) I feel my postflop skills are good enough where I won't put a bunch of bets in on like a 348 flop, or anything like that.

The main downside of playing a hand like 85, is that its rarely going to be able to win a big pot, and its easy to make mistakes with it postflop. But I don't think the actual call itself preflop is *that* bad. Its just the mistakes that you make on later streets when playing weak hands like this that make 85o bad.

And yeah, I really should have thought about the fish in the big blind. It definitely makes things tougher to maneuver. But if he hadn't been there, I'd like my call on the button 150bb's deep vs. a predictable opponent.

P.S. - Dorkus, stop posting faster than me. :|


P.P.S. - I also don't post hands here because I think the moves I make are good or bad, or because I want advice. I post because I'm trying to stimulate discussion, so that usually means posting a hand with some controversial plays in it.

Fine, you want to spark discussion, but as was pointed out by myself and two highly regarded members of this community, preflop IS spewy as played. This renders the rest of the hand somewhat moot since your edge over the opponent(s) must be bigger than the mistake you make by calling the CO's raise. It's called gambling and while, as I said, it might be good in a game where meta-considerations such as image, getting action and deception are very important, I doubt that your move is a successful one over time @ 25NL, because, as you pointed out elquently, there is a fish to your left that will happily donate his money to you without having to go through hoops and make dubious plays.

You're not in this to win pots, you're in this to make money, and every clearly negative EV move you make cuts into your hourly, wich is bad. The CO's range might be huge, but I'd say that all of his huge range is either a good favourite or flipping with 85o, so you can't really brush aside the equity difference as being a "small mistake".

Postflop line is good considering the circumstances.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

P.P.S. - I also don't post hands here because I think the moves I make are good or bad, or because I want advice. I post because I'm trying to stimulate discussion, so that usually means posting a hand with some controversial plays in it.

the best/most interesting hands tend to provoke the most heated discussion, so i think you win in this regard.

 

[c9h13no3]

Okay, since this is "horrible" preflop, lets see just how horrible it is:

Range - Equity
8d 5s - 23%
CO Range (top 30%) - 46%
BB Range (top 79%) - 31%

So, lets see... I put $0.85 into the pot and get back 23% of $2.80, or $0.64. So on average I lose $0.11. Maybe more, since I might have the best hand, but I'll get bluffed off of it. But even then, this mistake is small.

The problem with playing 85o is not the edge we give up preflop, its the dumb crap we do with it post-flop. Its bloody hard to play. However, other than my hand, I have absolutely everything going for me. I have position, and 2 players who play relatively poorly postflop.

The point I'm trying to get across here is that you guys focus SO MUCH on preflop play. But that's not where our money comes from, and its the street where the bets are smallest & the edge between hands is the smallest. So idk, I'm not saying my preflop decision was good, or even EV neutral. I know its bad. But in the long run, its not really going to affect my win rate all that much.

I also understand Rex's point, that a big concern is not spewing off a bunch of money with 2nd pair or something. But yeah, I think I can bluff often enough, and make two pair + often enough to make this roughly as profitable as a re-steal (you can only 3-bet light so many times, and I had been doing it 12% of the time).