$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live 1/2 line check vs LAG

[c0rnBr34d]

Hero is effective stack with about $500 and is largely viewed as weak tight aggressive. Aggressive pre but then weak post. And it's fair as I've gotten an absolute TON of AK and AQ but missed probably 10 out of 15. We tried to cbet normal frequencies but due to being donked into, being multi way, and Vs not even considering folding unless we're commiting stacks over multiple barrels we are mostly just giving up. First on turns then on flops but still playing solid pre flop. We have gotten a few bluffs through but haven't shown any so they just assume I have top pair there every time.

V is youngish LAG who's running over the table. First big hand we were in V calls $12 pre with 53o. Flop comes 743r, V leads $20, Hero raises to $70 with 88, folds back to V who calls to hit the 6 OTT. He's opening hands like K6o in late position. Straddling the button and making it $20 with lord knows what often. Sitting on $1200 when we arrived but down a bit since then. He's barreling relentlessly and most Vs are calling then folding river. Has been caught bluffing a few times by strong river hands that called.

OTTH: Hero limps 2s2h UTG to set mine vs active late position Vs. Few other limpers and V raises the BU to $15. SB call, BB call, Hero call, one other call behind.

Flop ($75): Kh 2d 3c
Checks to V who bets $25. BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn ($150): Kh 2d 3c 6s
Hero x, V $45, BB fold, Hero call

River ($240): Kh 2d 3c 6s 7d
Hero x, V $125, Hero $300. V goes DEEP in the tank. Starts thinking through the hand out loud. Appears to go back and forth a few times before finally making a frustrated call after maybe 3 full minutes.

Thought process was that at $15 pre and $500 effective we are getting like 33:1 bet to stack ratio to set mine. V was barreling so reliably that if we raise flop or turn we are folding out too much of his barreling range. The dangerous part of this line is that 45s is still possible even though V raised pre (not sure if he would raise 45o, I assume not but anything is possible). His sizing on the turn made me think he had value and wanted calls. But he may still fold hands like KT- if we raise turn. On the river if we were playing a bigger game I would have probably jammed but at 1/2 this could be the difference between getting value from 67 or not. Obviously we are calling it off if we were wrong and he has KK or 45 but we decide to go for what we think is max value on the river. Thoughts?

 

[quant1986]

I don't really like limping with 22-55 from EP unless the table is extremely weak passive.

For bottom set, I think a bit thin to check raise river as villain should have much more air vs value hand combos, and you don't have many busted draws in your range that may take such line. I get that if villain is very sticky and would call down with AA,AK in addition to 76,K6 then perhaps your line is fine.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

I don't really like limping with 22-55 from EP unless the table is extremely weak passive.

For bottom set, I think a bit thin to check raise river as villain should have much more air vs value hand combos, and you don't have many busted draws in your range that may take such line. I get that if villain is very sticky and would call down with AA,AK in addition to 76,K6 then perhaps your line is fine.

I've heard your first point and tend to agree from a theoretical standpoint. In practice though when Vs aren't tough and effective stacks are likely to give us better than 20:1 to set mine I still take these shots. In a larger tougher game or online I would just fold or maybe mix in a raise with 55. It's live, so I can't data mine and say how profitable it is but in my estimation it's doing quite well.

Why don't we want to raise his air on the river when there's no more action? This is our last chance to extract value. If he has us beat here I think we are strong enough to stack off. It's hard to draw the exact line of where he's calling down. He may surprise us and fold AA but given pot size and bet size I'm fine with him folding AA here. Should the fact that he's folding way more than he's calling deter us from going for it? I want to allow him to make a large mistake by overcalling when we are ahead of so much of his range but I could just be greedy lol.

 

[LevySystem]

I like how you played the hand tbh. Online id probably raise turn vs that sizing but on that board i really like the x, especially vs a Aggresive villain.

But i think you missed value on the river. Id just jam if he bets, if he has 45o there he also has esentially any 2 pair, tons of Kx, etc. If its sets over set so be it, but he has a lot of worse hands imo

 

[gustav197poker]

From the beginning of this hand, your rank was increasingly depolarized. In preflop, you probably called with a medium pair, or maybe 2 overcards, for which you chose a borderline, contrasting with your strong PF image and inciting a multi-way boat.
Already in the flop, after your call, your range approaches a high torque: AA; AK; QQ or a set under flopy. From the side of the villain, his range contains combos of Kx, and probably on the turn, he has achieved double pairs, perhaps with low connectors of the same suit as 6-7.
I do not see 4-5 very likely in the v range, since this line would take a slightly more aggressive path on the turn, looking for tptk exploit calls, or minors double pairs. I think the same about sets of the villain.
As for the bets of the villain, they were weak, almost purely speculative since btn, I suppose the villain was looking for a profitable fold, possibly building a fold equity suitable for you, considering your post flop image.
Anyway, I think the breaking point was on the river, when you raised your bet. At that point, I think btn put you on a safe set, so I think you played interesting in preflop and then you were honest with your final bet.
Maybe if you had gone ahead on the river, doing a donk shove, you would have confused the villain more and your rank would be more polarized, mainly between tptk, aces and a straight (unlikely according to your game). And with that you would have got cost-effective calls, from double couples for example, that act as bluff catchers.
This contradictory behavior often means weakness or despair and it is profitable to represent this line, when you hide a strong range.
Greetings.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

I like how you played the hand tbh. Online id probably raise turn vs that sizing but on that board i really like the x, especially vs a Aggresive villain.

But i think you missed value on the river. Id just jam if he bets, if he has 45o there he also has esentially any 2 pair, tons of Kx, etc. If its sets over set so be it, but he has a lot of worse hands imo

Thanks. You may be right on the river jam. Given the 3 minute tank I think it's super close though and we may or may not have gotten max value. Most times if V will call $300 they will call $415, but it can be difficult to find the sweet spot I just hated the idea of V getting away from hands we beat because "it was all in, he must have it" or whatever other silly reason.

From the beginning of this hand, your rank was increasingly depolarized. In preflop, you probably called with a medium pair, or maybe 2 overcards, for which you chose a borderline, contrasting with your strong PF image and inciting a multi-way boat.
Already in the flop, after your call, your range approaches a high torque: AA; AK; QQ or a set under flopy. From the side of the villain, his range contains combos of Kx, and probably on the turn, he has achieved double pairs, perhaps with low connectors of the same suit as 6-7.
I do not see 4-5 very likely in the v range, since this line would take a slightly more aggressive path on the turn, looking for tptk exploit calls, or minors double pairs. I think the same about sets of the villain.
As for the bets of the villain, they were weak, almost purely speculative since btn, I suppose the villain was looking for a profitable fold, possibly building a fold equity suitable for you, considering your post flop image.
Anyway, I think the breaking point was on the river, when you raised your bet. At that point, I think btn put you on a safe set, so I think you played interesting in preflop and then you were honest with your final bet.
Maybe if you had gone ahead on the river, doing a donk shove, you would have confused the villain more and your rank would be more polarized, mainly between tptk, aces and a straight (unlikely according to your game). And with that you would have got cost-effective calls, from double couples for example, that act as bluff catchers.
This contradictory behavior often means weakness or despair and it is profitable to represent this line, when you hide a strong range.
Greetings.

I wasn't slow playing at all pre flop so I wouldn't expect V to have me on AA, AK there with an UTG limp call. There were several hands where V would call and hit second pair and barrel vs my AQ+ and I would miss though. He often would show 22 himself or middle pair when I folded or the odd time he checked the river. Other players were calling him down with pairs then getting scared and folding river.

If we donk jam this river it may work in this particular case now that we know he bet $125 and tank called $300. But we would be donk jamming $415 into a pot of $240 which seems like it targets exactly 2 pair hands and fishy AA, AK that thinks we are bluffing. In general we get zero all the times that V has Ace high here or an even weaker hand. If we let him bet his value and his bluffs we can still raise and get more all the times he has air and still get most of it in when he has a strong hand. Maybe a x/jam is better as Luepso suggested.

 

[gustav197poker]

Thanks. You may be right on the river jam. Given the 3 minute tank I think it's super close though and we may or may not have gotten max value. Most times if V will call $300 they will call $415, but it can be difficult to find the sweet spot I just hated the idea of V getting away from hands we beat because "it was all in, he must have it" or whatever other silly reason.

I wasn't slow playing at all pre flop so I wouldn't expect V to have me on AA, AK there with an UTG limp call. There were several hands where V would call and hit second pair and barrel vs my AQ+ and I would miss though. He often would show 22 himself or middle pair when I folded or the odd time he checked the river. Other players were calling him down with pairs then getting scared and folding river.

If we donk jam this river it may work in this particular case now that we know he bet $125 and tank called $300. But we would be donk jamming $415 into a pot of $240 which seems like it targets exactly 2 pair hands and fishy AA, AK that thinks we are bluffing. In general we get zero all the times that V has Ace high here or an even weaker hand. If we let him bet his value and his bluffs we can still raise and get more all the times he has air and still get most of it in when he has a strong hand. Maybe a x/jam is better as Luepso suggested.

Of course, there are obviously several paths. But in a weak-looking post-flop player (without disrespecting you far from it, I just say your words that you commented previously on the explanation of your hand) the move forward, is very likely a sign of weakness, and even more, in live games. From this perspective it is my suggestion.
If the villain called you he is protecting his hand (2 pairs maybe) and if he got a bigger set it was just a cooler.

 

[LevySystem]

If we let him bet his value and his bluffs we can still raise and get more all the times he has air and still get most of it in when he has a strong hand

I mean ive heard people have no clue live, but 2x donk jam river looks super strong, even to someone who just learned the rules ^^

Vs a normal opponent who is likely to check back river we should x/r turn. But since hero has a read on V riverbluffing + V playing garbage in raised pots taking the chance and just checking makes the most sense.

I just feel V is calling you with the same range vs a jam than vs the raise on the river. Could be that betting all in triggers some instinct to fold in a livegame, since you don't see the pot and what you need to pay for it, online people will snap you cause of spr. But I think it's more in you're head then in his. We are never getting value from his bluffs wich on this board are not that many except gutters and any reasonable value should call.