$200 NLHE Full Ring: Butchered QQ hand

[duggs]

the more agg the stakes, the wider we can gii for value

 

[baudib1]

Why would it be standard at stakes above 10nl? Did you mean below 10nl? Can someone else please give their opinion on this? Because it seems me and Baudib disagree on this. It seems foolish to think that as you move up stakes and players get better you are default stacking the 3rd best starting hand.......as you are just coolering yourself more frequently while the other better players can flat or do other plays that allows them to lose less the times they are behind and win the most when they are ahead. From what I have read from books and some minor coaching I have received it seems apparent that automatically shoving QQ preflop isn't a very winning or even standard play, and you could greatly increase your profits and minimize losses with the hand by playing it in other ways. And I just looked at my DB and saw I have a big profit with QQ and only went allin pre like 2 times vs a fish at 50nl.

No, stakes above 10NL. 10NL is populated by complete nitfish with 3-bet% of 1%-2%. The higher stakes you go, the more aggressive the games are...in such a manner that the aggression increases exponentially. For example, the biggest LAGs at 50NL are passive players at 100 NL.

At microstakes you will basically never have 5-bet bluffing ranges because no one is 4-betting you without the nuts (QQ+/AK). The higher up you go, people will be 4-betting and 5-betting light and bluff shoving. The hands that are commonly used as 5-bet bluffs are going to be small pocket pairs because they commonly have better equity vs. a calling range than, say, broadway cards or suited Ax. Obviously higher pairs are going to hold up fine against a range that includes 22-55.

At the highest stakes, people are 5-beting/6-betting with ATC.

For examples, look at Tom Dwan 5-betting huge nit Howard Lederer with 86o.
Ivey and Dwan in 5-bet war with 76o vs. 87o. Ivey shoving 52o vs. a cold 4-bet from Lex Veldhuis. Gus Hansen stacked TT vs. Dwan saying, "I can never fold this against you."

The higher you get, the fish are the ones who are only stacking QQ+/AK.

 

[OzExorcist]

...but I doubt such thinking is taking place at the stakes you are playing

Keep in mind that this is live $200NL, so it plays a lot worse than online $200NL.

I probably sigh-fold this FWIW. Like others I'm not worried about UTG but SB being a solid TAG and flatting makes me think either KK+ or he's forgotten you're still in the hand... with the amount of money in the pot it's a close call though.

 

[frozensprx]

No, stakes above 10NL. 10NL is populated by complete nitfish with 3-bet% of 1%-2%. The higher stakes you go, the more aggressive the games are...in such a manner that the aggression increases exponentially. For example, the biggest LAGs at 50NL are passive players at 100 NL.

At microstakes you will basically never have 5-bet bluffing ranges because no one is 4-betting you without the nuts (QQ+/AK). The higher up you go, people will be 4-betting and 5-betting light and bluff shoving. The hands that are commonly used as 5-bet bluffs are going to be small pocket pairs because they commonly have better equity vs. a calling range than, say, broadway cards or suited Ax. Obviously higher pairs are going to hold up fine against a range that includes 22-55.

At the highest stakes, people are 5-beting/6-betting with ATC.

For examples, look at Tom Dwan 5-betting huge nit Howard Lederer with 86o.
Ivey and Dwan in 5-bet war with 76o vs. 87o. Ivey shoving 52o vs. a cold 4-bet from Lex Veldhuis. Gus Hansen stacked TT vs. Dwan saying, "I can never fold this against you."

The higher you get, the fish are the ones who are only stacking QQ+/AK.

Well said, I see your point now. I was only stating my opinion because I have witnessed many times playing live where someone stacked QQ vs AA or KK and it just seemed somewhat unnecessary in my opinion as there doesn't seem to be too much 4 or 5bet bluffing in small stakes live poker.

 

[Yoshimiii]

Well said, I see your point now. I was only stating my opinion because I have witnessed many times playing live where someone stacked QQ vs AA or KK and it just seemed somewhat unnecessary in my opinion as there doesn't seem to be too much 4 or 5bet bluffing in small stakes live poker.

Ye, when you get to 100nl+ online, decent regs will also light 3 bet often, along with the fish, this makes Q/Q so profitable to 4 bet OOP.