$200 NLHE Full Ring: $200 NLHE Full Ring: I'm OOP and flop a boat, but get shoved on on the river

Beanfacekilla

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Limping there is perfectly reasonable and acceptable play but so is 3betting. Why would he need to shove 100BB into a pot thats like 13BB. If he 3bets, there are only a few hands that have him completely crushed, and a majority of them will not want to call to a 3bet (again player dependent). Therefore if the action comes 3bet and the hijack or button 4bets or jams, you can comfortably fold while losing less had you check called all streets. The reason i dont like limping pre is because you will be crushed by hands like QJ or KJ alot that would fold pre, and you allow hands like AJ to see the flop for free.



It's 1/2 not 2/5. About 37 BB in pot.

If he opens, maybe he gets called a bunch, but yeah if he gets 3b, it sucks, and people at 1/2 are so passive they don't even 3b AK, to put it into perspective.

Everyone is scared and they play too passive.

The BB flat called pre with AK as well. He complained how he would have won the hand. He limped AK and was going to voluntarily play a MW pot OOP with it. Side note, but LOL dude. He even told me he was calling the $45 ($200-$250 effective).
 
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Clysse

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It's 1/2 not 2/5. About 37 BB in pot.

If he opens, maybe he gets called a bunch, but yeah if he gets 3b, it sucks, and people at 1/2 are so passive they don't even 3b AK, to put it into perspective.

Everyone is scared and they play too passive.

The BB flat called pre with AK as well. He complained how he would have won the hand. He limped AK and was going to voluntarily play a MW pot OOP with it. Side note, but LOL dude. He even told me he was calling the $45 ($200-$250 effective).

Im talking about the hand that this thread is about.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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He almost never has JJ+ or a 2. If he somehow calls with a 2 on button and flips quads he’s gonna nearly always flat your turn bet so we can basically eliminate quads. So his range IMO is 33-TT and strangely overplayed AK. The AK also seems unlikely.

It’s a crying call. You’re only beat by like 3 combos of 77 and you’re crushing everything else he’s likely to have.
 
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MrSamsa

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Such a sick spot man, though the jam is suspect you cant fold just because you think Villain has the one exact hand you think he probably maybe has you know? Its so marginal becaue 7x may overvaule his hand versus your pp's 33-66. I don't think many players even professional one would have found a fold in this spot so rest easy if you arent already :)
 
jsnake716

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OP, I don't understand, leading for information doesn't make sense, how about checking for information? It is a bad value bet in my opinion, because now all cards that could bluff would just fold, because your donk-bet looks very strong.


Yes, I think an interesting hand but I really do not understand the lead myself, and believe me I take some strange lines myself . It seems to me, your lead, rather than give you information, makes it a bit more difficult to range the opponents. ??


Edit: One other thing about live 1/2, From my perspective. I hear some comments saying NEVER, DEFINITELY, ALWAYS, these absolutes in a 1/2 are a recipe for over- rating and over evaluating some players. This is what makes poker so awesome!!! Right
 
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braveslice

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I don’t understand why leading flop is deemed wrong. Only thing that comes to mind that we miss a CB from broadways, but would it happen in live table anyway? Bet would be for value (edit:as it was) not for information (edit:even though we gained that too, cards of all players were revealed), also for protection against broadway range (edit:as it most likely was).
 
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Papier24

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I don’t understand why leading flop is deemed wrong. Only thing that comes to mind that we miss a CB from broadways, but would it happen in live table anyway? Bet would be for value (edit:as it was) not for information (edit:even though we gained that too, cards of all players were revealed), also for protection against broadway range (edit:as it most likely was).
I think donk betting against decent players is almost never a good idea. It might be okay to donk bet from the blinds if the flop suits your range better than the range of the PFR.
But as mentioned before he basically reveals his hand by donk betting on this flop. How do you want to balance his betting range on this board ? I would just check-call my whole range in this spot as it is nearly impossible to balance out your value range with decent bluffs on such a board. Hero can't have JJ+ here while the PFR can have these really strong pocket pairs. That's also the reason why should never bet into the PFR because his range is just way stronger. Hero is just so easy to read in this spot. It might be okay to lead the flop when the table is only full of fishes but villain and other players are described as good players.
 
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braveslice

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Papier24;4h039395 said:
How do you want to balance his betting range on this board ?
Donk betting here is as exploitative line as it gets, there is no need for balancing. You just trust them to make enough mistakes this to be profitable.

If we would want to balance, I would guess we should also donk with small pairs, as was assumed by villain. Also balanced by the fact that 200NL is a mad house ( I have heard, never seen) and flops like this are donked with Ax for protection and 54 suited because it’s almost a straight. Granted I made this part up, but Bean said that 2NL has similar feel and they do that there. Regardless this happens so few times per year that whole idea of balancing lines is totally not needed.

If villains are good then this probably would be different story, so we agree on that, I would guess though that they are relatively good vs other players on the table.

That board is so hard to make CB though with air 4 way and 26bb in the middle. If we check the probability that over cards hits because no-one bets is close of maximum value 30%. Can we get away with TT if PFR gets sticky? I would believe we don’t give 3streets, but 2, that said we would also call 2 streets? About same result both ways. The difference being that at least 50% of the time betting was for value. So 50% of time we made profit, 50% of time we break even.

If we would be exploited: PFR would raise his Ax we would fold best hand (I don’t think many players are capable to this, not sane one at least). I don’t think he can exploit us by just calling AA. We would go for 2 streets both ways. That said would we able to fold TT on the turn if he still bets? Maybe we would be, and in this case we should not donk.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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I think it’s fine to donk strong at fishy tables esp when it’s multiway or there’s any kind of draws out there. This is exploitative. Balancing vs fish is not really necessary.

In this spot I’m not in love with a donk just due to Board and situation. You’ve flopped a boat; yes. But you also haven’t improved from preflop. The times I donk strong are when I significantly improve on the flop and the board is such that I think they can call with worse. (Or it’s just worth protecting like I flop a straight and there’s 2 hearts. I might donk)
 
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c9h13no3

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Can't believe this hand has so many replies.

3betting vs calling is probably a wash. 3betting turns our hand into a bluff, but likely gets us HU with initiative. I probably 3-bet in the moment, but playing a 4-way pot as a set-mine is ok.


Donk lead is standard multiway, and I'm fine with the micro size due to the board.


Turn bet/fold is super easy, even with so little behind. No one 3bets live at 1/2, so JJ+ is totally in his range.
 
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