€20 NLHE 6-max: Top 2 pair facing river shove?

[Thinker_145]

Guy had KK and I called. So the conclusion is that this is not in fact a cooler against this sort of opponent and that I should be able to get away with it?

 

[vinylspiros]

i dont even know if getting away from this is correct. it is a cooler . just because he is a reg or tight doesnt mean that he only plays AA/KK this way.

i mean whats the point in playing AK if we hit top two and then decide to fold cause villain is showing alot of aggression. just saying.

i could be way off here but i think in the longrun our hand is usually good in this situation.

 

[John A]

Guy had KK and I called. So the conclusion is that this is not in fact a cooler against this sort of opponent and that I should be able to get away with it?

In all fairness, I probably shouldn't have put easy fold based on the responses in here. But yes, it's a hand you should be able to get away from. If you break down the range and the math it's pretty clear. It's actually a pretty good example of clear hand reading and making tough, but good folds. I think I want to steal this hand and blog about it if you don't mind.

As you move up in stakes, these are the hands that good players will get away from, and between maximizing value properly and making these good folds is how you move up stakes. It's a really good hand to learn from, so thanks for sharing it.

 

[Thinker_145]

i dont even know if getting away from this is correct. it is a cooler . just because he is a reg or tight doesnt mean that he only plays AA/KK this way.

Ya it's not often that AK runs into AA/KK but it does happen often enough to keep yourself in check preflop. However someone flopping a set with AA/KK while we have AK really happens very very rarely.

I am not angry about this hand it's just that I always want to keep improving. I didn't have much of a good feeling calling the river but then again there are moments we win/chop when not having a good feeling either. And we tend to only remember those times when we were wrong.

 

[Thinker_145]

In all fairness, I probably shouldn't have put easy fold based on the responses in here. But yes, it's a hand you should be able to get away from. If you break down the range and the math it's pretty clear. It's actually a pretty good example of clear hand reading and making tough, but good folds. I think I want to steal this hand and blog about it if you don't mind.

As you move up in stakes, these are the hands that good players will get away from, and between maximizing value properly and making these good folds is how you move up stakes. It's a really good hand to learn from, so thanks for sharing it.

Yes man go ahead.

And your second part is so true exactly the reason why I even made this thread as I wasn't angry about it but I feel I must improve in these sort of situations if I want to get to the next level in poker. Thanks for your valuable input as always.

 

[IPlay]

Aww man, results posted already but I was going to say river is a pretty trivial fold. Calling and hoping for a chop is pretty meh. I do understand that in the moment after putting that much money in that clicking call is almost instinctual and I do it at times without really thinking.

I really would prefer a 4 bet pre though. Even though he is a tighter 3 bettor, CO opens being 3 bet wide by the BTN is not uncommon at all.

 

[Thinker_145]

I do understand that in the moment after putting that much money in that clicking call is almost instinctual and I do it at times without really thinking.

This is SO true and I am relieved to know I am not the only one. I would have most probably folded this hand playing live.

I guess it's ultimately the price to pay for multitabling but those who do it least at the lower stakes probably have a far higher winrate without being superior in any other way.

 

[John A]

This is SO true and I am relieved to know I am not the only one. I would have most probably folded this hand playing live.

I guess it's ultimately the price to pay for multitabling but those who do it least at the lower stakes probably have a far higher winrate without being superior in any other way.

We all do it. I've been in plenty of spots I knew should have been tough folds and then clicked call because I invested so much, and you only have so much time to think online. The bigger the pot gets when you have a good hand yourself, the easier it is to try and justify a call.

Looking back at the hand now, what should have been your river bet sizing based on the hands from his range you're looking to get calls from?

 

[Thinker_145]

Looking back at the hand now, what should have been your river bet sizing based on the hands from his range you're looking to get calls from?

Now that's a good question. AQ and AJ are two hands I am looking at however knowing this player AJ is far less likely to have 3 bet than AQ so I suppose I should be betting 30-40% to get a call from AQ. Looking at it now 60% is not going to be a call from AQ most of the times especially since the other guy knows I am almost never messing around here.

I am too sticky with the standard % bet buttons and all too frequently don't make a custom bet when I should be.

But let's say I bet 1/3 now here is the problem with it. AK and even AJ might be tempted to raise me so how do I just fold after making that sort of a bet? With the bet I made I showed strength and when I get shoved I could have found a fold as you and others have said.

 

[John A]

Now that's a good question. AQ and AJ are two hands I am looking at however knowing this player AJ is far less likely to have 3 bet than AQ so I suppose I should be betting 30-40% to get a call from AQ. Looking at it now 60% is not going to be a call from AQ most of the times especially since the other guy knows I am almost never messing around here.

I am too sticky with the standard % bet buttons and all too frequently don't make a custom bet when I should be.

But let's say I bet 1/3 now here is the problem with it. AK and even AJ might be tempted to raise me so how do I just fold after making that sort of a bet? With the bet I made I showed strength and when I get shoved I could have found a fold as you and others have said.

Good... ya AQ/AJ (I do think a reg on the button this deep will 3-bet AJ enough). So against someone who is passive, you can get away with about 41-45% pot river bet. Against someone more aggressive you're correct, you'd want to bet slightly more to remove the guess work on their perceived river value shove range.

Which of course, begs the final obvious question. Should you have even bet the river? I think this is the part that in real time online is sometimes difficult to break down. Or at least it's sometimes the most difficult for myself.

 

[Thinker_145]

Good... ya AQ/AJ (I do think a reg on the button this deep will 3-bet AJ enough). So against someone who is passive, you can get away with about 41-45% pot river bet. Against someone more aggressive you're correct, you'd want to bet slightly more to remove the guess work on their perceived river value shove range.

Which of course, begs the final obvious question. Should you have even bet the river? I think this is the part that in real time online is sometimes difficult to break down. Or at least it's sometimes the most difficult for myself.

I have a note on this guy that he doesn't make thin river bets so keeping that in mind how does that change the equation for you? AQ is a sure fire check back.

Whether he will raise a 1/3 bet with AJ I really don't know.

Now you are right about the online part. When you really think about it checking only loses value from AQ which may not call the river anyways. AJ will bet and so will all the hands beating us. So you do raise a very interesting question about potentially checking the river when we nail down all the combos.