$2 NLHE Full Ring: Crazy play test, I want this play torn to shreds pleaseds ?

[JMcCabe]

It's not Fancy Play Syndrome, if you can play well post flop. In fact, it's a modified version of 3betting light out of the blinds, that actually is more believable and provides much more fold equity.

It's also another way to get value from regs and TAGfish, who are playing too many tables and relying too much on their HUDs.

And I don't want to sound like a dick, but I think I know my game better than you think you know my game.

Here's my hands list.

BTW - You never responded to the fact that I made more than $5k profits from open limping (only 0.21BB/100, but still), which includes the limp-3bet dynamic as part of a balanced limping range. Spew?

 

[JMcCabe]

Wow....just reread my reply and the tone does make me sound like a dick.

Again, sorry for the double post, but felt my wording was way too harsh - and it was too late to edit.

Anyways, curious to see what you think of the range of hands I'm making this play with.

Again, I only do it 0.5% of the time because overdoing it is obviously unprofitable (as you said, playing ATC OOP after limping), but it is definitely profitable when used in moderation as part of a balanced strategy.

Refusing to mix up your play causes you to become predictable against thinking LAGs. Obviously this isn't important at the lower levels (like NL2 for example), but failing to incorporate advanced or unorthodox plays into your game will often cause you to hit poker's version of a glass ceiling. It doesn't always simply amount to FPS.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Don't worry about the tone. All my posts make me sound like an asshole (probably because I'm an asshole).

Getting ready to head out for a couple hours but it looks like your limp/3betting range is heavily weighted towards value hands (QQ+,AK). I'd actually be interested in your BB/hand with those hands when you open from EP compared to when you limp/3bet and compared to when you limp them overall (no one behind you raises).

I still maintain you don't need to worry about balancing your limping range because you're better off not having one at all but maybe your filters will tell us differently. In other words I think you're likely giving up a very profitable situation (opening with your big hands) for a less profitable situation (limp/3betting the range you posted above). But I certainly could be wrong.

BTW I'm starting to think your whole strategy revolves around being taken for a fish (less than 100bb BIs and open limping). Do you min bet a lot as well? I'm sure you're that guy that the regs in your game look at and think how is this guy winning. Not that any of that is a bad thing necessarily.

 

[JMcCabe]

68/145 is heavily weighted? Seems like balanced to me, with a lot of the other trash hands I do this with.

No, I hardly ever min-bet, though I'll occationally do this OOP on the river (a trick from Dusty Schmidt's book....Dragthebar plug, though I'm not a member).

I still maintain you don't need to worry about balancing your limping range because you're better off not having one at all

I really disagree with this. If you are a strong post-flop player, there is a lot of value in limp-calling or limp-3betting, both IP and OOP, though this is dependent of course on your stack size.

With 70-100BB stacks, I want to see flops cheaply with a wider range of hands, especially against players who will stack off light, knowing I can get all the money in post flop. This also allows me to make aggressive stabs at the pot when necessary and still have an intimidating stack to back up the moves.

Understanding how to use different strategies against different players at the table (always raising preflop against players X and Y, while limp calling against player Z) is an important aspect of being able to profit in a variety of settings. This probably comes from my live cash game background (I've been playing since 1995, pre interwebz) which made it a little harder to bumhunt or table select.

BTW I'm starting to think your whole strategy revolves around being taken for a fish (less than 100bb BIs and open limping)

There is no doubt being taken as a fish is part of it, but I've been playing at Everest for around 7 years now and know how to exploit most of the regs who play there. And you're right, the regs probably thought of me as a fish initially and now can't figure out how I'm winning with my playing style, which is exactly what I want. Confusing and profiting off regs is a necessity in today's game, as fish at the "higher" limits are becoming less available.

Will send you some filtered graphs once their available (bedtime here). I'm sure my BB/100 rate will probably be slightly lower when compared to simply open raising from early position, but I still contest that the metagame value, the ability to extract extra value from certain opponents, the table image value, and the fact that I can now play more hands from UTG and UTG+1 profitably instead of folding everything but a very tight range of hands makes up for it.

 

[fx20736]

Interesting conversation. I narrowed on one key stat in your Starting hands chart; AKs is a big money loser for you. Do you have any theories why? It is my biggest loser too. I think the reason is I had been more willing to get it all in preflop with AKs until recently but I usually won small pots or lost big ones that way.

Lately when I get raised or 3bet by a full stack I have been flatting with AKs. When I make a 4 flush I try to manipulate the SPR's to get both stacks in on the flop because it is a + EV situation to do that as against any single pair except AA & KK AKs + 4flush is a 60% favorite. Against KK it is 48% and against AA or a set is 36% all of which is +EV if the effective stack size >= my stack.

I have just started to think about manipulating SPR's when having an OESD. I think this is little trickier when you are not drawing to the nut straight so I'm wondering if there are some good chunking rules to apply when you have the strong draw and think opponent may have a set or 2 pair.

 

[JMcCabe]

fx....I think you need read through the thread and look at my hand chart again. You're looking at AKs losing over 8 hands in a 90k sample when using a specific move (UTG limp + 3bet). In my 90k sample AKs is a winning hand for me, as is AKo, AQs, AQo, AJs, AJo. I'd suggest starting a new thread with that question.

Hand tables to come. Having a busy morning here.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Meant to post this earlier but if you don't want to post screen caps Jim, feel free to just summarize with something like I'm a 4BB/100 winner when I open with QQ+/AK from EP. I mean if you want to post screen caps great but I don't know if there might be some info in there you don't want to share.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Either you get a free flop, and can go from there

It's not free, it's 1BB? And it's ridic -EV to be OOP in a hand which will often cause you problems when you flop low pairs or two pairs and get barrelled into or let opponents get free cards for their draws...

 

[JMcCabe]

Right, I'll let you analyze them.

I'm still happy with using this play, though it looks like I'm losing value from including AKs and AKo in the range.

First table is hands where I limp and don't 3bet. Second table is hands where I raise first in. Only hands included are AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Right, I'll let you analyze them.

I'm still happy with using this play, though it looks like I'm losing value from including AKs and AKo in the range.

First table is hands where I limp and don't 3bet. Second table is hands where I raise first in. Only hands included are AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AKo.

To make it a more far comparison filter the hands where you open only for UTG/UTG+1 since it's hard to make money OOP no matter whether limping or raising.

BTW meant to ask this earlier but do ever limp/call from EP with say small pairs or whatever? Just wondering if you're always looking to 3bet when you limp early or if you're also just flatting a raise with certain hands.

 

[JMcCabe]

I really disagree with this. If you are a strong post-flop player, there is a lot of value in limp-calling or limp-3betting, both IP and OOP, though this is dependent of course on your stack size.

With 70-100BB stacks, I want to see flops cheaply with a wider range of hands, especially against players who will stack off light, knowing I can get all the money in post flop. This also allows me to make aggressive stabs at the pot when necessary and still have an intimidating stack to back up the moves.

I've posted stats for all positions, so the information is there without filtering. I play a mixture of full ring and 6max, though mostly full right. It's difficult to filter for UTG and UTG+1 in PT3 (unless they've changed it recently) because tables sometime get shorthanded.

I will limp-call OOP with a wider than typical range as well (similar to the limp-3bet range) depending on how many players are in the pot, who I'm up against, and whether or not I feel I have a post flop edge. The above quote is from one of my earlier posts. In my opinion, the cards you hold are only a small part of the equation in poker, and focussing too much on the math of specific moves and forgetting about the who psychological element of the game, even online, is a limiting proposition.

Math-sound poker can guarantee you 0-1BB/100 or slightly better over a giant sample at the lower limits, but it doesn't help you continue to beat games and improve as you progress up the limits.