$2 NLHE 6-max: Villain 3bet shoves. What is your calling range?

[Tricky123bet]

some crucial things should be considered ,

Original post gives no indication that the hand was played at zoom and not been back to dispute the discussion. On regular tables villain is likely to have a lot more hands on hero and therefore a lot more likely to exploit any leaks in op's 3bet shove calling range.

villain is a TAG and therefore likely to be taking notes live /have a hud that automates notes or does post session reviews. Either of these methods may have highlighted that the OP was calling 3bet shoves wide and therefore induce him into 3bet shoving Aces for value thinking it likely that he would get called.

stacking off 100bbs with 18% equity is a very expensive way to gain a note that you will be quite unlikely to use again


If villain has profiled his opponents/got a note that hero stacks off pre with QQ+ then shoving his Aces is a great way of maximising his value with AA. Why only do it with his aces :-
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.99% 46.10% 3.89% { KK }
MP3 50.01% 46.12% 3.89% { QQ+ }
As soon as he drops down to KK , he is on wrong side of a flip with the QQ+ range that he assumes will call the 3bet shove.

Sorry about the statement that this was at zoom, that was wrong on my part.
"Leaks in op's 3bet shove calling range" - is this really a thing that can or should be considered at 2nl? I'm going to be honest, I've played less than 5k hands at 6max, I'm mainly a full ring player. But I think 3bet shoving spots reg vs. reg would have been a more common topic on this forum in that case.
Hero has 75 hands on villain, and that's hardly enough for villain to know anything about op's 3bet shove calling range. And if he were to 3bet shove AA, isn't that better against a tighter open range from UTG? Assuming this is indeed a thinking reg, knowing that op is another thinking reg, a normal sized resteal would get more action against a button open than 3bet shoving. Restealing can also induce some light 4bets, while still mostly getting it in against QQ, KK and AK that decides to 4bet anyway. So my question to you is: How can villain think that 3bet shoving AA is more optimal than restealing, without any info on op?
So how often is a situation where we get in QQ vs. a 3bet shove from AA with only 18% equity going to occur? Hardly ever (as I said at least I haven't encountered a 3bet shove from a TAG in 115k hands, against fish it's obviously a different story). And 18% is only in the worst case scenario. That is why I'll happily call off with QQ, and take a note on whatever happens.

 

[Mcash2]

KK+ unless I had history with player. TT is way too weak to call push. Even if V only has overs, you are coinflip. I want to outplay opponents post flop in most cases and get my money in with better than 50% chance.

 

[Keith_MM]

Sorry about the statement that this was at zoom, that was wrong on my part.
"Leaks in op's 3bet shove calling range" - is this really a thing that can or should be considered at 2nl? I'm going to be honest, I've played less than 5k hands at 6max, I'm mainly a full ring player. But I think 3bet shoving spots reg vs. reg would have been a more common topic on this forum in that case.

2nd part of your argument clarifies why its only appropriate at 2nl because rare as it is at 2nl its even rarer higher up that it wouldn't clome up often enough to be discussed.It would just be the standard 3bet 4bet or 5bet shove scenario with discussion on optimum bet sizing.

Hero has 75 hands on villain, and that's hardly enough for villain to know anything about op's 3bet shove calling range. And if he were to 3bet shove AA, isn't that better against a tighter open range from UTG? Assuming this is indeed a thinking reg, knowing that op is another thinking reg, a normal sized resteal would get more action against a button open than 3bet shoving. Restealing can also induce some light 4bets, while still mostly getting it in against QQ, KK and AK that decides to 4bet anyway. So my question to you is: How can villain think that 3bet shoving AA is more optimal than restealing, without any info on op?

Its probably a generalization but regs at 2nl are most likely to be 3betting for value rather than as a bluff which would make 4betting light questionable. If villain has seen hero stacking off pre with AK or KK- then shoving AA will maximise valueand avoid the situations where they call pre and then hero folds when an Ace comes on the flop, or K on the flop and hero has QQ- etc.
Also we don't have an info on how OP may have been perceived by villain since he hasn't been back but that doesn't mean that villain didn't operate with any reads on OP.

So how often is a situation where we get in QQ vs. a 3bet shove from AA with only 18% equity going to occur? Hardly ever (as I said at least I haven't encountered a 3bet shove from a TAG in 115k hands, against fish it's obviously a different story). And 18% is only in the worst case scenario. That is why I'll happily call off with QQ, and take a note on whatever happens.

just checked the ranges for "no bullshit 6max" and they have BB vs BTN 3b/All in as QQ+,AK. quick glance through couldn't see any explanation of when to 3bet and when to shove so could easily see it being misunderstood by people and instead of 3betting and getting all in if reraised they are 3betting the bottom end and shoving the top end of that range.

 

[Tricky123bet]

Its probably a generalization but regs at 2nl are most likely to be 3betting for value rather than as a bluff which would make 4betting light questionable.

Yeah, this is the major shift from 2nl to 5nl. In 5nl a lot of players are restealing fairly wide, which leaves some room for light 4betting. In 2nl people are for sure way tighter in their restealing ranges.

If villain has seen hero stacking off pre with AK or KK- then shoving AA will maximise valueand avoid the situations where they call pre and then hero folds when an Ace comes on the flop, or K on the flop and hero has QQ- etc.
Also we don't have an info on how OP may have been perceived by villain since he hasn't been back but that doesn't mean that villain didn't operate with any reads on OP.

So I see way more merit in being selective about our 3bet shoving. Maybe against a 19/7 SLP that understands position somewhat well enough for us to know that his UTG open is strong. And that we think he might call off with QQ, KK and AK (and more maybe?). Or against a 45/5 fish that opens in MP and will call off a big part of his opening range to a 3bet shove. And maybe taking a "reverse note" against semi-decent players that they have seen us 3bet shove with AA.
But against a button open I would just make a normal sized resteal. Hands that can call our 3bet shove is just such a small portion of his range, that he will see us 3bet shove get it in against another player, and he will tighten up considerably against our 3bet shove in the future. He might still not be disciplined enough to give up KK (nor should he, KK vs AA is just a cooler that will happen both ways anyway), but I would say save the 3bet shoving for tighter opening ranges.

just checked the ranges for "no bullshit 6max" and they have BB vs BTN 3b/All in as QQ+,AK. quick glance through couldn't see any explanation of when to 3bet and when to shove so could easily see it being misunderstood by people and instead of 3betting and getting all in if reraised they are 3betting the bottom end and shoving the top end of that range.

Seeing as I just went from being an opponent to a slight proponent of 3bet shoving, do you imagine that our 3bet shoving range would need some balancing (talking both in 2nl and 5nl here), or will AA do the trick? (again, not 3bet shoving it every single time, just in some good spots, against fishier opponents and with some info)