$2 NLHE 6-max: Stack off with KK in 4B pot after A hits flop?

[c0rnBr34d]

Thanks CardsChat for the freeroll money. Starting to play around with 2NL on ACR a bit. I took a weird line and created a fun river spot. Thoughts?

Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB
Hero (SB): 104 BB
BB: 104 BB
UTG: 25.5 BB
CO: 161.5 BB VP 70 / PR 55 / 3B 6 / AF 7 / RAF inf / AtS 70 / F3B 2-5 / hands 76

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K♥ K♠

UTG raises to 2 BB, CO raises to 4.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 15 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 10.5 BB
The min raise from UTG already set this hand up to be different. CO has maniacal aggression but he did fold to my first 3B and we only have 76 hands so it's unclear how much he's thinking, maybe a smidge. After UTG min raise and tiny 3B it didn't seem necessary to go huge on the 4B.

Flop: (33 BB, 2 players) 6♠ A♥ J♦
Hero checks, CO checks
Flop sucks bad for my particular hand but crushes my range. I've been playing uber nit since I have no roll though, something like 18/9 with 3B of 5 so I'm not sure how much AQ+ V will put in my 4B range. I kind of expect him to stack off pre with AK though. I usually range bet here around 1/3 pot but given our V with AF of 7 I opt to x/c flop and eval. If he has Ax he's never folding and we are stacked. He's capable of raising flop with no Ace as well which would put us in a horrible spot. Just seemed at the moment like if I cbet small and got raised I would over fold.

Turn: (33 BB, 2 players) 4♠
Hero checks, CO bets 24.5 BB, Hero calls 24.5 BB
Was very surprised at the flop x back. Then the large turn sizing. Check here is also very questionable. After we x twice we pretty much never have Ax unless it's AA. I figure my x will induce value bets from QQ, TT- and whatever air he can show up with. Given our line I think we have to call here and eval river. Against this V I think we need to maximize against his weaker hands to make up for the times he shows up with Ax or JJ but I'm probably leveling myself.

River: (82 BB, 2 players) 5♥
Hero checks, CO bets 122 BB and is all-in, Hero?
Run out seems fair enough for a 4B pot. Given our line I think we have to x again and eval. V jams and we have less than a pot sized bet left. We have induced the widest possible range against the most aggressive player at the table perhaps for some of the wrong reasons. How often can we call down here? Not loving either option. With only 76 hands it's not crystal clear what V shows up with there. I expect to see some AJ, JJ, 66. I kind of expected other Ax to probe flop though so I'm not sure which combos he's checking flop with then stacking off turn and river. I guess A5s got there too. I'm sure no one plays it post flop this way but given the line are we calling down or no?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Love the large 4-bet given the situation and player type involved. Would not hate to see it even larger like a normal 20BB 4-bet. Really punish him for his need to see a flop with whatever junk, he has.

Flop
As you say a terrible flop for your hand. Against a better player I guess, the GTO line is to bet small with our entire range in a 4-bet pot. But against a maniac I would just give up and find a better spot to win all his money later. AX is definitely a significant part of his range after calling a large 4-bet.

Turn
When he check back flop, that does weaken his range somewhat, alhough its certainly possible, that he is sand bagging something or pot controlling top pair meh kicker. I would probably put out a small blocker bet now trying to get called by QQ, JX, TT or whatever someone like this cant fold.

Once we check and face this huge bet, I would fold. He is setting it up for a river jam, and I am not into playing for stacks with an underpair to the board, when the SPR is almost 3, and he can very easily still have top pair or even a flopped monster like a set of jacks. Your hand is also a very bad bluff catcher. You only have 2 improvement cards, and you block absolutely nothing of his value range.

River
If you called him on the turn, it must be because, you think, his range is full of junk. And in that case the river card changed nothing. So as played you kind of have to close your eyes and make the huge hero call. Calling turn and then folding on a brick river is definety the worst of any possible line, you could take against a maniac.

 

[Sidetracked]

Definitely 4 bet bigger preflop. You're out of position for the whole hand, and creating a smaller SPR helps negate that disadvantage.

Vs this kind of player, I will often stack off even with the A on the board. Trying to assign any kind of rational thought processes to this kind of 2NL aggrofish is a fraught business.

 

[John A]

4-bet larger against this guy. You checked all streets to induce an aggressive opponent to bluff, so follow through and call the river.

I'd advise once he checks the flop to either bet the turn or x/c turn planning and betting on him to over bluff and call him down.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Preflop
Love the large 4-bet given the situation and player type involved. Would not hate to see it even larger like a normal 20BB 4-bet. Really punish him for his need to see a flop with whatever junk, he has.

River
If you called him on the turn, it must be because, you think, his range is full of junk. And in that case the river card changed nothing. So as played you kind of have to close your eyes and make the huge hero call. Calling turn and then folding on a brick river is definety the worst of any possible line, you could take against a maniac.

Definitely 4 bet bigger preflop. You're out of position for the whole hand, and creating a smaller SPR helps negate that disadvantage.

Vs this kind of player, I will often stack off even with the A on the board. Trying to assign any kind of rational thought processes to this kind of 2NL aggrofish is a fraught business.

4-bet larger against this guy. You checked all streets to induce an aggressive opponent to bluff, so follow through and call the river.

I'd advise once he checks the flop to either bet the turn or x/c turn planning and betting on him to over bluff and call him down.

Thanks for all your feedback. I appreciate and respect all of your opinions. Common theme here is 4B larger OOP especially against this V type. I agree. I think I may have been trying too hard to keep V in the hand. As you can see sample is fairly small and he did fold to my first 3B of normal size and flatted my second 3B. This was my first 4B so I wasn't sure how he would react (especially since it's an OOP cold 4B) and thought it would be really horrible to get a fold there.

What I hoped to also get some feedback on is whether or not it made sense to deviate form a more standard play and take this line given limited reads (over thinking, leveling, fancy play syndrome?). I felt like there was value in keeping him as wide as possible and letting him blast off as he had done in single raised pots frequently so I could balance my losses against his Ax with my large wins against the weaker parts of his range. These patterns don't always translate into 4B pots over a small sample which is a pretty decent counter argument against. No one seemed to hate the line but it seems everyone prefers just betting at it on the flop, and if not the flop then definitely the turn.

Fundiver liked the flop check but then wanted to b or x/f turn.
John may have implicitly liked the flop check and then is indifferent about x/c vs b/b afterwards?
Sidetracked is fine with stacking off but I'm not sure as to how. Bet / bet? X/b/b? x/c down?

 

[John A]

To be clear, you're not 4-betting larger hoping for a fold. You're 4-betting larger to get more money in vs an aggro fish that can't fold, and to get a reasonable SPR that you can easily GIAI postflop.

As far as the turn, I was saying that bet the turn if you aren't prepared to call off potentially two streets, this was you can x and evaluate river (potentially folding),or x/c turn with the plan of c/cing nearly all rivers. I think the later line is the higher EV line, betting the turn just reduces variance and is still reasonable as you can ensure you get some value from your hand.