100nlFR: KK vs action deep

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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UTG is a tagish 19/10/4 player after only 45 hands. Hasn't done anything too crazy. UTG+1 is a fish, I crush his range by miles.

Thoughts on the overall line, specifically the flop raise which I really didn't put enough thought into and the call?

poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $179.85
BTN: $74.50
SB: $34.55
BB: $30.50
UTG: $130.40
UTG+1: $19.25
MP1: $39.40
MP2: $46.80

Pre-Flop: K
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K
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dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG raises to $3, UTG+1 calls $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $13.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $10.50, UTG+1 calls $10.50

Flop: ($42) 6
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7
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3
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(3 Players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $5.75 and is All-In, Hero raises to $40, UTG raises to $116.90 and is All-In, Hero calls $76.90
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I think your raise of the shorties flop bet may have been a bit large if you didn't want to commit the remainder of your stack if the UTG player pushes. But I think when he pushes you have to call. Even if we limit his range to only sets, JJ+ and AK/AQ spades we have ~35% equity.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Well it's pretty gross, b/c the only thing utg pushes with here is AA, sets and fl drs. I don't see him do this w/ JJ,QQ.

We're deep, so we could fold to his all in, hmmm looking at this we beat only a fl dr or air, it sucks but fold. I don't know whether I find a fold in the heat of battle though.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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If Jags right and he won't do this with JJ/QQ our equity plummets to ~17%. Personally I think AA 4bets preflop enough to discount it somewhat and 33/66/77 fold to the 3bet most times. This bring JJ/QQ/draws in enough to justify the call because of the size of our flop raise, IMO.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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i prob raise smaller on flop and fold to a shove
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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If utg chk/r all in with JJ+QQ, I want his name for my buddy list asap. I'm the only loon who does this at 100nl :D
 
S

switch0723

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If Jags right and he won't do this with JJ/QQ our equity plummets to ~17%. Personally I think AA 4bets preflop enough to discount it somewhat and 33/66/77 fold to the 3bet most times. This bring JJ/QQ/draws in enough to justify the call because of the size of our flop raise, IMO.

You can't assume villain is going to 4 bet with aces pre, remeber he and Chuck are playing deep so the villain may be more inclined to take a flop with Chuck and let him catch up. I'd say AA is definately well within the range.

I just don't see villain check/3bet shoving that flop with jj or qq after chuck has raised the all in.

I don't see villain having a set here, someone 19/10 even over a small sample, doesn't seem like someone who is raising utg with a small-mid pair, seems more likely they limp, i see them folding to the 3bet aswell

Unfortunately, we are ultimately repping AA,KK or AKs here, and villain is more than happy to get the money in against us. So i can't see how we have him beat.

Whats the size of the pot we have to call ~$70 into??

I agree with the raise less/fold to shove stated by vanquish, but i'm worried we may have committed ourself now depending on what the size of the pot is, although i only see us ahead of a,k or a,q spades, and were only a slight favourite there
 
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switch0723

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hmm, running it through pokerstove, its a lot closer than i thought

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.310% 45.44% 03.87% 6748 574.50 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 50.690% 46.82% 03.87% 6953 574.50 { QQ+, AsKs, AsQs }

I think that is a realistic range for an utg raiser to call a 3 bet with, and then check/cold 3 bet push a flop.

This makes me lean towards a call now after we put so much in with our raise
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Your flop raise concerns me in the signal it sends to UTG+1. I don't play $100NL but that raise looks like a "I want isolation on the short stack 'cause I've got 99/TT/JJ/QQ/AsKs and my preflop squeeze failed" raise.

On the other hand, if he reads it that way and has the top end of that range, then his shove also makes sense which leaves you in good shape.

Generally though I'm inclined to agree with Van; raise less and fold to a shove.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I think we agree here, we should be raising smaller ($30?) and folding to a shove. We're just too deep.

As played I also agree calling is a must since we've committed ourselves.

He had qq this time but I really didn't like how I played the flop, hence the post.
 
F

feitr

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I'm inclined to disagree. A set makes little sense here, since UTG would have to be making a bizzare deception raise, which seems unlikely seeing that given ~40 hands there probably isn't a need to mix it up yet (unlikely that somebody has pegged his limping range). So i'd put his range at AsKs, *AsQs* and QQ+. AsKs and QQ+ is about 50% equity vs KK.

And sure, shoving with QQ is a little loose here, but no 4 bet with AA is a little odd as well. You really have to narrow his range to AsKs, AA for you to be a huge dog. I think i'd call and if he had AA then oh well it was good preflop play by villain. I do agree that you should raise less on the flop tho in order to at least give you the option of folding.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Just checked out the replay version of this hand on your blog Chuck and it's wrong. Shows the shorty hitting a straight but losing to your KK???
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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didn't notice that. Sometimes it screws hands up; I'm guessing it had to do with the sidepot.

But yeah, forgot to mention the shortstack having 89 and taking the main pot. Still won a full stack, w/e.
 
eNTy

eNTy

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didn't notice that. Sometimes it screws hands up; I'm guessing it had to do with the sidepot.

But yeah, forgot to mention the shortstack having 89 and taking the main pot. Still won a full stack, w/e.

Idd was totally freaked when i saw that. I even looked up your hand replay on the site it self and it still said KK wins over QQ and a straight.

It weirded me out :(
 
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