F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
So you 3-bet 44 here? I wouldn't have.
My point is that if we're afraid of being out of position with JJ, then raising is equivalent to a bluff. We're hoping everyone will fold, and we're not sure what to do if they don't. If we stop looking at JJ as "top 5 starting hand" and instead call it "pocket pair that can improve to a set," we don't seem to have such difficulty with it anymore.
Raising might still be best, but I'm not seeing anyone explaining how we make money off of it other than "I hope they fold."
My point is that if we're afraid of being out of position with JJ, then raising is equivalent to a bluff. We're hoping everyone will fold, and we're not sure what to do if they don't. If we stop looking at JJ as "top 5 starting hand" and instead call it "pocket pair that can improve to a set," we don't seem to have such difficulty with it anymore.
Raising might still be best, but I'm not seeing anyone explaining how we make money off of it other than "I hope they fold."
ChuckTs
Legend
Silver Level
F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
That works. So do we just shove or is it a fistpump-shove?
Zach, how big of a 3-bet will you call with 55?
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
no you don't 3 bet 44 here. I'd always toss 44 here and i really do not see how you can think flatting with 44 here is not -EV. Even when we hit a set, villain's range is so wide that we almost never will be able to stack him. How are you going to play 44 oop when you have absolutely no idea if your hand is good or not on the vast majority of boards? Good villain's are going to have a field day with somebody trying to see a river with a small underpair.
So where JJ>44 is that 1. villain might try to take a flop in position with hands dominated by JJ (T9s, 88, QJs etc) all of which completely crush a 44 played oop and 2. we have good equity vs villain's 4 bet bluffing/light 5 bet calling range, which we never do with 44.
F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
What?
You're folding 44 in the BB in a 3-way pot closing the action for a single raise? You're talking about "seeing a river with an underpair" I'm talking about setmining.
F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
Let me clarify a statement I made that apparently was confusing:
I argue that if we setmine with 44 (and I really think we should) then clearly we think setmining is +EV. I think it is, anyway.
And if setmining is +EV, then setmining with JJ can't be worse than setmining with 44. Following this, calling with JJ with the intention of setmining can't be -EV.
So, and this all hinges on us agreeing that setmining is profitable in a 3-way pot with relative position on the field, since calling the single raise with JJ is +EV, we need to have reason to believe that raising is more +EV in order to go that route.
But, as I said, it seems we can't reach concensus on whether or not to even play 44 in this situation. I can't confirm this in HEM right now because I'm at work, but I'd be surprised if it's a losing hand (or rather, losing more than 1BB/hand) from the BB in a 3-way pot.
I argue that if we setmine with 44 (and I really think we should) then clearly we think setmining is +EV. I think it is, anyway.
And if setmining is +EV, then setmining with JJ can't be worse than setmining with 44. Following this, calling with JJ with the intention of setmining can't be -EV.
So, and this all hinges on us agreeing that setmining is profitable in a 3-way pot with relative position on the field, since calling the single raise with JJ is +EV, we need to have reason to believe that raising is more +EV in order to go that route.
But, as I said, it seems we can't reach concensus on whether or not to even play 44 in this situation. I can't confirm this in HEM right now because I'm at work, but I'd be surprised if it's a losing hand (or rather, losing more than 1BB/hand) from the BB in a 3-way pot.
Jagsti
I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
A counter argument can be made FP. So I think your saying that JJ should be played here for set mining purposes, mainly b/c where in a shitty position, and if the flop is favourable we may extract value.
But JJ has so much more value than just getting used for this purpose. In my database it's the 3rd most valuable hand, are we really thinking that a hand so valuable should be used in this way, even given the fact were OOP? We want to build a pot worth playing for. Villains will call the 3bet with a fairly wide range here mainly b/c they have position, also they will 4bet bluff on occasions. I was fairly happy with playing for stacks if he called on a decent flop. I just got a little confused w/the 4bet, and I know we had been talking a lot about it here on the forums, and this is were it got a little fun with this hand. And promoted to some good discussion.
But JJ has so much more value than just getting used for this purpose. In my database it's the 3rd most valuable hand, are we really thinking that a hand so valuable should be used in this way, even given the fact were OOP? We want to build a pot worth playing for. Villains will call the 3bet with a fairly wide range here mainly b/c they have position, also they will 4bet bluff on occasions. I was fairly happy with playing for stacks if he called on a decent flop. I just got a little confused w/the 4bet, and I know we had been talking a lot about it here on the forums, and this is were it got a little fun with this hand. And promoted to some good discussion.
F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
Just to make myself crystal: I'm not sure if playing JJ as a setmining hand is the best move. I'm arguing that it's feasible, i.e. +EV. So if we're afraid that we're missing value from not raising, the starting point for what constitutes "missed value" isn't 0; it's whatever EV from setmining we're forfeiting.
I don't have an issue with 3-betting and getting it vs. Zach if we think he's likely to be 4-betting with a worse hand. I'm just arguing that the bar for whether or not that is the right move isn't EV > 0.
I don't have an issue with 3-betting and getting it vs. Zach if we think he's likely to be 4-betting with a worse hand. I'm just arguing that the bar for whether or not that is the right move isn't EV > 0.
Chris_TC
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Because 44 in that spot has only setmining value whereas JJ wants to get headsup vs. one of the other players and maximize the pot as quickly as possible.
I hate flatting with JJ. You don't want to play a small pot vs. two other players. That's a waste of a good hand. Even more so considering that Jag has been playing LAG.
Jagsti
I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Anyways, after this hand I sort of felt gutted, I'm thinking damn I hope I haven't out thought myself on this one. So zach has yet to give us his hand in this thread so I'll put closure on this hand. He told be yesterday that he had KK .
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zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Anyways, after this hand I sort of felt gutted, I'm thinking damn I hope I haven't out thought myself on this one. So zach has yet to give us his hand in this thread so I'll put closure on this hand. He told be yesterday that he had KK
Yep, I was hoping he'd think like the rest of you and when he folded figured he must have had just trash. When I saw JJ here I was genuinely surprised.
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
Ok well i actually did forget it was a 3 way pot. So in that case it is fine. But heads up, flatting 44 against a wide CO range is definitely not a +EV play.