$100 PLO Heads-up: 100plo how do we proceed?

[dwbrown7680]

No he is def a solid, thinking player. I've logged something like 13k hands with villain and he is a very smart reg at these stakes. Granted it has been quite a bit of time since this hand took place but from what I remember he was pretty decent.

The river is kind of spazzy on his part because the shove makes it look like his hand isn't that strong but the rest of the hand he's repping AA/AK/AQ/7x a good bit.

He would have been better off taking a bet/check/bet line to get me to fold but he didn't play it that abhorrently either.

 

[baudib1]

His play is perfectly fine, we're at the top of our bluff-catching range is all. His range kills ours as we essentially have no boats here.

 

[NoOneYouKnow]

His play is perfectly fine, we're at the top of our bluff-catching range is all. His range kills ours as we essentially have no boats here.

I disagree, he is never getting worse hands to call, and he is rarely getting better hands to lay down the river.

I would say wp to a bet bet call line because he can get some river value from our air.

If you have 13k hands, I would suggest he is value betting the river based on a thin value read he has on you from past hands. It is still spewy.

 

[dwbrown7680]

He's not value betting the river, this is purely a triple barrel semi bluff that he's trying to execute based on board texture. He most likely put me on a FD/KhKxhx type hand that he was trying to get to fold out. Would have to be the thinnest value bet in the world on this river with A8.

 

[jbbb]

I don't really like the triple.
The board is literally SO dry on the flop he can bet for value and expect you to call with worse Axxxx like A89T hands or Axxxhh. So i'd bet flop.

The turn is a brick IMO because would you peel the flop with 7xxx? So he is either still ahead of FD's and Axxx or slightly behind AKxx,AQxx. So I think his best move on the turn is to check/call because you're likely to bet FD's (right?) and air and check back SDV hands like Axxx.
I don't know the best line for him to take on the river, but maybe I think arguments can be made for anthing from bet/fold, bet/call to check/call. It depends on how he perceives you, i.e. are you creative enough to shove missed FD's when he bets?

Do you think my proposed line (Bet , c/c, b/f or b/c) is too passive for a HU 3b pot?

 

[dwbrown7680]

I don't really like the triple.
The board is literally SO dry on the flop he can bet for value and expect you to call with worse Axxxx like A89T hands or Axxxhh. So i'd bet flop.

The turn is a brick IMO because would you peel the flop with 7xxx? So he is either still ahead of FD's and Axxx or slightly behind AKxx,AQxx. So I think his best move on the turn is to check/call because you're likely to bet FD's (right?) and air and check back SDV hands like Axxx.
I don't know the best line for him to take on the river, but maybe I think arguments can be made for anthing from bet/fold, bet/call to check/call. It depends on how he perceives you, i.e. are you creative enough to shove missed FD's when he bets?

Do you think my proposed line (Bet , c/c, b/f or b/c) is too passive for a HU 3b pot?

If you're going to bet flop for value then you have to assume turn is also going to be bet for value because a 7 is a very small part of my range. Checking the turn is bad for him because pretty much no matter what I have (outside of A7, 77, etc) I'm going to check back to control the size of the pot on a paired board. Betting a FD on a paired board is bad juju unless you have a solid read.

I'm pretty sure the strongest line he could have taken in this hand would have been to bet the flop (for value he would have thought), to checking turn and watching me check back and then betting the river for value. The 3 barrel he chooses to employ isn't terrible as he's basically doing his best to rep AA and 7x hands in this 3b pot. Once the FD misses and he realizes he isn't that strong still he is betting the river in hopes I'm not that strong either and to force me to fold.

Just sort of ul for him that I was towards the top of my range and able to call down all three streets.

 

[baudib1]

Think of all of the PLO players you know who could never make this calldown with 1 pair.

This play is good by villain because:
1. top of his range crushes ours
2. He doesn't have the KQJ of hearts in his hand
3. This is one of the best hands he can have to turn into a bluff - he is blocking some AA/AK combos as well as many combos of 87xx/T987 etc. that hero might call a 3-bet with.
4. Even if called by a better hand, he can get paid off with AA, 7x and AQ the next time he takes this line.

 

[jbbb]

If you're going to bet flop for value then you have to assume turn is also going to be bet for value because a 7 is a very small part of my range. Checking the turn is bad for him because pretty much no matter what I have (outside of A7, 77, etc) I'm going to check back to control the size of the pot on a paired board.

Surely that's good for him as he has a good showdown value hand that plays better in smaller pots?

 

[NoOneYouKnow]

Think of all of the PLO players you know who could never make this calldown with 1 pair.

This play is good by villain because:
1. top of his range crushes ours
2. He doesn't have the KQJ of hearts in his hand
3. This is one of the best hands he can have to turn into a bluff - he is blocking some AA/AK combos as well as many combos of 87xx/T987 etc. that hero might call a 3-bet with.
4. Even if called by a better hand, he can get paid off with AA, 7x and AQ the next time he takes this line.

1. This is not a reason in PLO, the top of any range will always crush unless we flop the nuts. His 3b of 21% is still very wide.
2. This is more of a reason to check. There are more combos of hearts in our range and checking may induce a bluff, hearts will not call a TB.
3. Why are we turning this into a bluff? The board is super dry and we have excellent showdown value. The flop and turn are definitely bets for value and to AT, the river is a brick because any AQ combos were already ahead.
4. Whilst this is true it needs to be applied situationally. It can not be used as a reason for a bluff because meta game is always a reason for a bluff. It is not enough and the board plus holdings make it illogical.

 

[baudib1]

1. This is not a reason in PLO, the top of any range will always crush unless we flop the nuts. His 3b of 21% is still very wide.

I don't even know what that means but you always play your range against someone else's range. If the board is better for your range than your opponent's, you should play more aggressively.

Having "good" showdown value isn't a reason to not try to win the pot uncontested. The problem villain has is he can't really check the river and expect to be good and if he is good, hero presumably isn't giving him a free showdown either.

You don't have showdown value if you can't showdown.

If villain is never bluffing when taking this line then hero is going to own him in position pretty quickly.

 

[dwbrown7680]

3. Why are we turning this into a bluff? The board is super dry and we have excellent showdown value. The flop and turn are definitely bets for value and to AT, the river is a brick because any AQ combos were already ahead.

A8xx on this board has horrible showdown value. Once I call flop and turn he pretty much knows he's behind and has one move left to make which is to hope I'm weak/bricked the FD and get me to fold to the all in bet. The only bet he makes that can be construed as actual value is on the flop when little is known. Once another 7 comes on the turn he knows he's ahead here something like ~15% of the time and alters his play into a triple barrel semi-bluff instead of anything resembling "value".

 

[NoOneYouKnow]

He has ATxx not A8. Not that this makes a huge difference to his SD value.

My question to you is quite simple. What better hands are folding, what worse hands are calling?

As for the 'ATxx has no showdown value' because villain is going to bet. I have no issue c/c all in.

 

[dwbrown7680]

Uhhh like I said he's pretty much hoping I'm somewhere in the same boat as him with a hand that has SD value but isn't very strong. That shove on the river is primarily trying to push out stuff like AK, AQ,AJ etc that has him beat. I'd be really, really hard pressed to find a call on that river with AJ, etc.

Obviously things like AA/7x are never folding but he's resigned to paying off if we have those hands. He's basically just barreling to fold out our weaker/med strength hands.

 

[MrBubbleMan]

I'd raised it up..TPTK on paired boards like this is the minimum for push aggressively a hand imho

 

[dwbrown7680]

I'd raised it up..TPTK on paired boards like this is the minimum for push aggressively a hand imho

It's a pretty solid way to go broke quickly.

 

[jordanbillie]

It's a pretty solid way to go broke quickly.

+1

 

[MrBubbleMan]

It's a pretty solid way to go broke quickly.

I don't think so..what are u afraid of in a board like A 7 2 7?
Can u think he could have 22? imho u should be afraid of only AA and 7x...
To me the worse opinion is calling cause almost any river (but just your kickers) put u in a troubling situation..like it's happen...river happened to be Q and your oppo bet the pot..so u're forced to guess what he has..
And u see that u'have putted in the pot your entire stack...call on turn could make sense if u can save a part of your stack..

For this reason I think that in this spot the treat was push or fold...cause in the case of pushing u can let your oppo pass some hands (like Axxx) that can u beat on the river..otherwise if u call, can u see a river that let u pass on the river? (apart a 7 or a 2?)

tell me if I wrong something

 

[MrBubbleMan]

I don't think so..what are u afraid of in a board like A 7 2 7?
Can u think he could have 22? imho u should be afraid of only AA and 7x...
To me the worse opinion is calling cause almost any river (but just your kickers) put u in a troubling situation..like it's happen...river happened to be Q and your oppo bet the pot..so u're forced to guess what he has..
And u see that u'have putted in the pot your entire stack...call on turn could make sense if u can save a part of your stack..

For this reason I think that in this spot the treat was push or fold...cause in the case of pushing u can let your oppo pass some hands (like Axxx) that can beat u on the river..otherwise if u call, can u see a river that let u pass facing a bet? (apart a 7 or a 2?)

tell me if I wrong something

some language errors corrected lol

 

[dwbrown7680]

What am I getting to call raising the turn that I'm ahead of? I had a bluff catching hand, which is what it did. Raising that turn I'm only getting calls from AA,7x, 22, etc.

 

[MrBubbleMan]

What am I getting to call raising the turn that I'm ahead of? I had a bluff catching hand, which is what it did. Raising that turn I'm only getting calls from AA,7x, 22, etc.

ok i get your point