$100 NLHE Full Ring: Third barrel good?

[acky100]

I think in this situation If you are in MP1 you should never be calling me with small pocket pairs for the same reason you wont let me isolate QTs

You're not getting my stack when you hit a set, and when you call you're really inviting people to come along with much weaker holdings, and you're also getting squeezed a non zero percentage of the time. I really think calling small pocket pairs against most regs in UTG-MP spots is pretty bad unless theres some huge fish behind you which will come along also just because of how much shit can happen to ruin your set mining plan, if you can even set mine profitably anyways.

Please remember, i think for 99% of cases isolating QTs is too wide also, i also think if you're not opening up your range that small percentage of time a sexy spot is available to you, you're just playing too staticly. My UTG range is pretty tight just like yours so im obviously folding QTs most of the time, its just spots where the blinds or UTG+1 in this case are the guys im going to make money from are weak, and where theres no regs behind me who love to cold call IP or 3bet and make life hell that i really decrease my iso'ing standards as im pretty confident in getting HU with the fish. I also get a ton of respect and if a reg does call me its most definitely a hand like pocket pairs given the fact that everyone behing me real tight, so they're folding the flop to my cbet like 80% anyways which im fine with. Similar reason why occasionally throwing in A5s wouldn't be terrible from UTG, every TAG behind us is folding stuff like AJo etc so we dont actually have to worry about being dominated. (i never actually open A5s from UTG though i'd rather open up with QTs )

Basically our hand is overrepped against the nitty regs if they even bother to call such a strong looking play, and against the fish we're IP and we're not at the table to make money off regs for the most part, it's all coming from these fish as you know.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I think in this situation If you are in MP1 you should never be calling me with small pocket pairs for the same reason you wont let me isolate QTs

You're not getting my stack when you hit a set, and when you call you're really inviting people to come along with much weaker holdings, and you're also getting squeezed a non zero percentage of the time. I really think calling small pocket pairs against most regs in UTG-MP spots is pretty bad unless theres some huge fish behind you which will come along also just because of how much shit can happen to ruin your set mining plan, if you can even set mine profitably anyways.

Please remember, i think for 99% of cases isolating QTs is too wide also, i also think if you're not opening up your range that small percentage of time a sexy spot is available to you, you're just playing too staticly. My UTG range is pretty tight just like yours so im obviously folding QTs most of the time, its just spots where the blinds or UTG+1 in this case are the guys im going to make money from are weak, and where theres no regs behind me who love to cold call IP or 3bet and make life hell that i really decrease my iso'ing standards as im pretty confident in getting HU with the fish. I also get a ton of respect and if a reg does call me its most definitely a hand like pocket pairs given the fact that everyone behing me real tight, so they're folding the flop to my cbet like 80% anyways which im fine with. Similar reason why occasionally throwing in A5s wouldn't be terrible from UTG, every TAG behind us is folding stuff like AJo etc so we dont actually have to worry about being dominated. (i never actually open A5s from UTG though i'd rather open up with QTs )

Basically our hand is overrepped against the nitty regs if they even bother to call such a strong looking play, and against the fish we're IP and we're not at the table to make money off regs for the most part, it's all coming from these fish as you know.

I think calling with sm/mid pp after you iso raise here is fine since the chance of getting raised by anything but premiums is slim, the limping fish is going to come along quite often, and you're going to have to play your hand a little more straight forward postflop with both me and the fish still in the hand.

 

[acky100]

Yeah good point its probably fine with the fish coming along considering the rest of the table are just gonna fold around most of the time.

 

[Deco]

**** I knew you were a nit but I never thought you'd ever fold when it was checked to you

Why see a showdown when you can open fold
But ye i meant check.

Dont worry WV, me and baudib are friends, atleast i think we are

HU4Rollz thread?

 

[swingro]

I would never do this at full ring.

 

[sixpeppers]

I fold.

I bet more on the flop less than half pot invites all underpairs and perhaps even some gutshots to come along. $6-7 will do me.
I bet more on the turn. Again less than half pot bets will see us dealing with more check raises and maybe even keep the underpairs in. Really doesn't hurt us to bet $12. That way we don't need to overbet to get his stack in should we hit out straight.

The river I give up. As small as your sizing has been I still expect most players to have left their underpairs behind. Jx isn't calling this flop unless villains a huge fish (in which case we still don't want to bluff) so that leaves us with just Kx, monsters and the occasional 78. Kx will show up far more often than 78, let it go.

Lastly don't show results.

I actually hate everything deco said here I think this is a great iso raise of a fish, I doubt regs are battling back tons in a spot like this making it relatively easy for you to get headsup in position versus a weak opponent with a weak range a lot, and when other people do enter, you can play "cautiously." I think a small bet on the flop is very sexy because of the Kxx board texture, it can EXTRACT value from weak hands like gutshots or small pairs, hands that will fold to a larger sized second barrel. After the second barrel I would generally give up because I feel they have a K a ton of the time, BUT if you read them like they could still have a middle pair type hand, or if you think a large bet will get weak kings to fold, then a third barrel is viable.

 

[acky100]

I think this is a great iso raise of a fish

Me and sixpeppers win! fu all!

Yeah river is probably super villain dependant as some fish would love to call bottom pair and lots will also give up anything that isnt a K there, there are definitely better spots to fire three though.

 

[Deco]

I actually hate everything deco said here I think this is a great iso raise of a fish, I doubt regs are battling back tons in a spot like this making it relatively easy for you to get headsup in position versus a weak opponent with a weak range a lot, and when other people do enter, you can play "cautiously." I think a small bet on the flop is very sexy because of the Kxx board texture, it can EXTRACT value from weak hands like gutshots or small pairs, hands that will fold to a larger sized second barrel. After the second barrel I would generally give up because I feel they have a K a ton of the time, BUT if you read them like they could still have a middle pair type hand, or if you think a large bet will get weak kings to fold, then a third barrel is viable.

You know your agreeing with 2/3 streets in the post your quoting right?

As for the turn we've a straight draw and a fishy open limp calling villain will certainly have more than Kx in his range, underpairs, air, 5x,6x. I expect Kx to be in the minority and we don't even need it to be.

As played we need villain to fold around 12% of the time for the turn bet to be EV+. Barrelling the turn is super profitable!






Mathyness (for anyone who can be arsed)
_______________________________________________________
Without equity (Even this may be profitable imo)
($27/9 = 33%)

With Equity
(8outs = ~16%) 66%*0.16 = %11
33% - 11% = 22%
Now we need to factor in that the 11% of the time villain calls and we hit our straight we win an extra $9. Multiplying the % by 1.5 would approximate this.

17.5%

With implied odds and Q/Ts being outs >0% of the time
I'm no Carol Vorderman so I can't work this out but were looking at ~10%

 

[sixpeppers]

You know your agreeing with 2/3 streets in the post your quoting right?

As for the turn we've a straight draw and a fishy open limp calling villain will certainly have more than Kx in his range, underpairs, air, 5x,6x. I expect Kx to be in the minority and we don't even need it to be.

As played we need villain to fold around 12% of the time for the turn bet to be EV+. Barrelling the turn is super profitable!






Mathyness (for anyone who can be arsed)
_______________________________________________________
Without equity (Even this may be profitable imo)
($27/9 = 33%)

With Equity
(8outs = ~16%) 66%*0.16 = %11
33% - 11% = 22%
Now we need to factor in that the 11% of the time villain calls and we hit our straight we win an extra $9. Multiplying the % by 1.5 would approximate this.

17.5%

With implied odds and Q/Ts being outs >0% of the time
I'm no Carol Vorderman so I can't work this out but were looking at ~10%

I think we are agreeing. Maybe I just disagree with your fold preflop idea, I think the iso raise is very solid! Yeah the turn bet seems mandatory versus a person like this, in teh live pokerz I do this all the time without even a worry about it not being a a good play, then continuing with a river bet is usually where I make my first tough decision of the hand lol.

 

[JusSumguy]

Unknown, limp called treating him like a weak fish instantly, based on that and his stack size. Didn't expect to get squeezed and hadn't been really active at the table, and the mark was the guy to my right, so thats my justification for opening QTs in EP, you nits!

Plan on the turn was to either check back if i felt i didnt have any fold equity and take a free card, but i felt that i did have some fold equity so my plan was to probably fire the turn and bet most rivers. He had taken a little time thinking before ch/calling flop and turn so i fired the third. Do you like? or am i spew king?

You know, after reading this again. I'm gonna hafta agree with the move here. You weren't attacking the table, you were isolating a specific mark. You successfully did that, and then you pursued the mark.

The villain turned out to be a call station (as read) and paid you off.

Sounds to me like you need some serious kudos for this.

-

 

[Deco]

I think we are agreeing. Maybe I just disagree with your fold preflop idea, I think the iso raise is very solid! Yeah the turn bet seems mandatory versus a person like this, in teh live pokerz I do this all the time without even a worry about it not being a a good play, then continuing with a river bet is usually where I make my first tough decision of the hand lol.

Oh ye I read your I give after the 2nd barrel as I give up before the 2nd barrel.
Ah well at least I don't need to correct a mistake I spotted in that maths now

 

[hackmeplz]

I think pre's pretty close, honestly not really worth arguing over. If someone's noticing you're isoing so wide it's gonna become bad really fast but I don't expect FR regs to pick up on it at all. River I think bet can be ok but bet way smaller. What are you trying to make fold? You're not trying to make him fold TP are you? I just think all the hands you want to make fold are weak like A high or small pair+draw and basically you don't need to overpot to make those fold.

 

[acky100]

I knew i'd get called by Kx but im sure a small bet is just gonna make him call with small pairs whereas a big bet will make him fold them smaller pairs.