$100 NLHE 6-max: Probably no FE

[John A]

He says we have NO FE.

check calling > betting because we have no FE and leading allows us to be raised.

If you re-read my post, I'm referring to the turn, not the flop.

 

[Aleksei]

Yeah, post analysis I was thinking leading the flop would have been the higher EV line. Kind of kicked myself on this hand a bit. At the time I was thinking how aggro the button was and wanted to do my best to keep the biggie on my left in, but I still like leading. My bad play ended up saving me money because there's no way biggie was folding based on his hand.

Best lesson in poker: If you're going to make a bad play or take a sub-optimal line, make sure to stay results oriented and focus on where you saved money because your opponent wasn't calling or folding.

I don't get though why leading is better than check-raising. Like, if we intend to take it down otf we should try and get some more money in pot before we do, right? We have redonkulous equity.

 

[bnasp2]

At second example, how is that possible that you see mucked cards.
I think that "muck" means noone will see my cards, right?

 

[John A]

I don't get though why leading is better than check-raising. Like, if we intend to take it down otf we should try and get some more money in pot before we do, right? We have redonkulous equity.

Thought we touched on this already, but if I get it in 180bbs deep, I don't have "redonkulous" equity.. I'm flipping or a slight dog. Plus I'm trying to keep both bad players in the pot. If I have "redonkulous" equity, why would I want one or both of them to fold?

 

[Aleksei]

At second example, how is that possible that you see mucked cards.
I think that "muck" means noone will see my cards, right?

Wrong. It means no one will immediately see your cards, but Villain's hand shows when you check history if it went to showdown in most poker sites.

Technically you're also allowed to ask to see someone else's mucked hand live, but it's terrible etiquette and will actually get you thrown out of a home game and/or punched in the face, so don't do it ever.

 

[John A]

At second example, how is that possible that you see mucked cards.
I think that "muck" means noone will see my cards, right?

Because I practice Santeria my friend...

 

[Aleksei]

lol

 

[Marginal]

No body thinks we get any sort of folds c/r flop and jamming turn? It leaves us with a slightly biggish bet on the turn but, If he calls with second pair so be it we are still with good equity. This line is just way to passive. Maybe this is just a product of me being a PLO player but getting it in with a monster draw like this cant be terrible especially when we know he can call off with Tx.

I also like donking flop for reasons deco stated.

 

[John A]

No body thinks we get any sort of folds c/r flop and jamming turn? It leaves us with a slightly biggish bet on the turn but, If he calls with second pair so be it we are still with good equity. This line is just way to passive. Maybe this is just a product of me being a PLO player but getting it in with a monster draw like this cant be terrible especially when we know he can call off with Tx.

I also like donking flop for reasons deco stated.

Well, technically I stated that I preferred donking the flop and why... but. w/e

What's your goal though? If you have tons of equity why are you trying to fold players out? Can't you realize more of your equity versus both opponents range if you can keep them in the pot?

 

[Marginal]

No Im saying we get folds on the turn some of the time when we miss if we take that line and even if called we are not in terrible shape.

 

[Aleksei]

Thought we touched on this already, but if I get it in 180bbs deep, I don't have "redonkulous" equity.. I'm flipping or a slight dog. Plus I'm trying to keep both bad players in the pot. If I have "redonkulous" equity, why would I want one or both of them to fold?

Well, because while we have huge equity, we have huge equity over two streets rather than one (over one street we're a slight dog); so if one street bricks our equity gets cut in half. With monster draws, realizing our equity right there and then is usually best.

And, yeah we'd touched on that but then you mentioned that you liked leading flop, and I'm honestly not sure how leading flop is more EV than check/calling to trap on later streets (the line your followed) or check-raising to get more money out of our FE/present pot equity.

 

[John A]

No Im saying we get folds on the turn some of the time when we miss if we take that line and even if called we are not in terrible shape.

I understood what you're saying, but if we CR and are called, if we're playing for 100 BBs that's one thing, but stacks become odd if we're 180bbs deep. So it's not clear cut, plus if you care called, you have zero FE against either of these guys. I'd have to have a good amount of draws in their range for it to make sense, and really there aren't a lot of draws beyond KJ (and I kill some of those combos), and not a ton of flush draws that would make sense either.

Maybe if you gave a range it would become a little more clear to me.

 

[John A]

Well, because while we have huge equity, we have huge equity over two streets rather than one (over one street we're a slight dog); so if one street bricks our equity gets cut in half. With monster draws, realizing our equity right there and then is usually best.

And, yeah we'd touched on that but then you mentioned that you liked leading flop, and I'm honestly not sure how leading flop is more EV than check/calling to trap on later streets (the line your followed) or check-raising to get more money out of our FE/present pot equity.

Thanks for the explanation, learn something new all the time. hehe... fyi, your equity isn't cut in half, it doesn't work that way, but yes, your "redonkulous" equity is over 2 streets, not one.

Leading you may realize some FE, and you can set the price you want to set for the hand, and take control of the hand. I don't mind the line I took once both players are in. It gives me every chance to get paid off later because the weakest and deepest player is sandwiched throughout the hand. On review I thought leading might be slightly better, but honestly not by much. Different situation, different opponents, and I'm CRing the flop, or some kind of similar line.

 

[Aleksei]

fyi, your equity isn't cut in half, it doesn't work that way,

Well not exactly I know, you gotta account for one less card in deck; but it does get cut down significantly. That's why it's pretty standard to take aggressive flop lines with monster draws. Get it in while you're ahead.

 

[DunningKruger]

I pretty much always lead in a spot like this against these players. Don't like a check raise. John's line isn't bad although I don't agree with some of his comments. I'm curious about the plan should the river (or for that matter the turn) grant you the nuts, or the 2nd nuts, or even a K. Oh speaking of K 9K if you lead the flop you're betting your hand for value.