JCgrind
Legend
Silver Level
oh i am.
and ye i think thats a totally legit strat for ~100bb play provided the reg didnt open UTG, assuming he opens properly UTG.
Deco
Legend
Silver Level
Never I wouldn't even do this UTG vs HJ, heck I don't even do it UTG vs UTG+1 in FR. We're going to stack KK and I 3bet bluff the living shit out of villain in this spot so I'll often see AK/QQ stack and even get a few 4bet bluffs and JJs (At FR!!).
Only time I do this is if I've a huge fish in the blinds or a really extreme squeezer but even then it's rare as if the fish is really bad I can expect my 3bet to be flatted alot, and people aren;t as comfortable squeezing UTG opens.
KK I'll do this more often (at FR with position), if someone is refusing to adjust to my 3betting range and is only 4betting KK+ here a flat is an easy decision especially when we might get squeezed and get little credit when we back raise.
6max OOP even KK isn't being flatted by me.
Deco
Legend
Silver Level
I keep missing that we're talking about 250bb deep.
But ye being deep makes me want to 3bet AA more not less. If we're not 3betting AA what are we 3betting?
Mind you I do recall a winning reg posting that against good opponents he doesn't have a 3bet range 250bb+ deep UTG/MP vs SB/BB. Was FR though, he deleted the pot and may have been levelling. It was in a HA where someone had KK and got 4bet.
But ye being deep makes me want to 3bet AA more not less. If we're not 3betting AA what are we 3betting?
Mind you I do recall a winning reg posting that against good opponents he doesn't have a 3bet range 250bb+ deep UTG/MP vs SB/BB. Was FR though, he deleted the pot and may have been levelling. It was in a HA where someone had KK and got 4bet.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
well its not like flatting AA some % of the time means you never 3b AA and then by extension because you never 3b AA you never 3b anything else and so now you just suck dicks in the BB.
i'm intrigued by the idea of flatting AA sometimes BB vs. BTN reg and then like c/r flops for value or c/c, c/c, donk or other weird lines that you can use to get value (villain should have a lot of one pair hands by the river and obv you beat all of those whenever its pair vs. pair) as villain will think hey this guy never has AA/AK/KK bc he'd always 3b those since he's 3betting 7% (w/e) already!
idk i don't play poker anymore but thought it might be interesting to discuss (bc i originally thought about how you can win someone's stack when you're like 300 BBs deep and the only real way is to have the nuts and have your opponent believe you literally never have the nuts --> e.g. you flatted AA and flop comes A** or turn A or w/e)
Deco
Legend
Silver Level
In 3bet/4bet/5bet pots AA can eaisly stack worse hands deep unimproved. It's the main reason why 3betting AA deep is great.
There are plenty of spots where flatting very strong hands can make us more profit than 3betting them but never with AA imo simply because the value we get from QQ/KK/AK is too much to pass up on. KK is pretty much doomed to face horrible spots in 3bet pots and lose lots of money vs our AA and often get stacked.
These aren;'t great example (not 300bb deep) and not but they both happened very recently so figured I'd post them. (Villains are both regs)
QQ/KK we're not going to feel too great stacking off here, we need AA in our range to deal with this sort of spew.
Hand #1
poker stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter
BTN: $100.00
SB: $105.17
BB: $59.01
UTG: $100.50
MP: $266.16
Hero (CO): $203.45
Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is CO with A :club: A :spade:
1 fold, MP raises to $3, Hero raises to $9, 3 folds, MP raises to $30, Hero calls $21
Flop: ($61.50) 5 :spade: 2 :heart: 3 :diamond: (2 players)
MP bets $58.73, Hero calls $58.73
Turn: ($178.96) J :diamond: (2 players)
MP bets $176.16, Hero calls $114.72 all in
River: ($408.40) T :club: (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $408.40
MP shows 7 :heart: A :heart: (high card Ace)
Hero shows A :club: A :spade: (a pair of Aces)
Hero wins $405.60
(Rake: $2.80)
Ok its a squeezed pot but even if it weren't and villain had held AA my stack is as good as his. The 30bb we may make off weaker hands by flatting just isn;t worth it.
Hand #2
Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter
BTN: $408.94
SB: $292.67
BB: $103.25
Hero (UTG): $198.90
MP: $296.83
CO: $304.94
Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG with K :club: K :diamond:
Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, CO calls $3.50, BTN raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero calls $8.50, 1 fold
Flop: ($29.00) 3 :spade: 9 :club: 2 :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $21, Hero calls $21
Turn: ($71.00) J :diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $44, Hero calls $44
River: ($159.00) 9 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $122, Hero calls $121.90 all in
Final Pot: $402.80
BTN shows 8 :spade: Q :spade: (a pair of Nines)
Hero shows K :club: K :diamond: (two pair, Kings and Nines)
Hero wins $400.00
(Rake: $2.80)
View all 2 hands
I think flatting AA makes villains life much easier and that isn't a good thing.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Loled at this.
But also, while I agree that getting your opponent to think you never have the nuts when you do is nice, it's first off nearly impossible if you have a somewhat balanced range (there will almost always be value/close to nuttish hands in your range probably).
Second, 300bb deep, I don't think we're even looking to get stacks in by the river usually. From a theoretical standpoint, unless preflop raise sizes are huge and being adjusted so that you create standard SPR situations, it's going to take tons of aggression on every street to create a 600bb pot, meaning that I'm probably not that comfortable on a lot of boards with a bare overpair (since villain prob doesn't feel comfortable with TPGK).
Now forget the fact that AA prob isn't gonna be good in 600bb pot that often, thinking about the sheer practicality of shoving that much money in is a nightmare... If we are BvB and it's 3Xed pre and we pot every street, that's only a pot size of 6bb (pre-flop)-> 18bb (post-flop) -> 54bb (post-turn) -> 162bb (post-river).
In a HU pot and potting every street we need a more than > 11bb raise to get stacks in. But again, doubt I'm trying to stack off AA (barring weird preflop play, like 9-bet shipping) this deep that often. Could be wrong, but that's my impression.
JCgrind
Legend
Silver Level
Because I think it's a really bad spot to bet as I explained in the OP, since his range is super wide, he's an aggro banana, and the A on the turn is a super obvious barrel card for him. Why would I donk out on the turn? Like I think he definitely calls or raises, but if he calls I bet he folds to my river bet, and of he raises what am I doing, stop n go? Neither of those gen calls I don't think
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
i think Vanq has a point in that there are def spots where they are going to play far too nitty post in a 3bet pot but are going to put in alot more money with a wider range in a single raised pot.
Hack could you elaborate on what part of their range we get value from and why clicking it back is bad please?
I want to click it back because its the sizing most likely to get bluff raised and I imagine there are far more bluffs in his range than thin value hands. so by clicking it back we might lose a little when he calls with a few combos of worse but we can induce more bluffs to balance out that loss. or am i being overly optimistic?
Hack could you elaborate on what part of their range we get value from and why clicking it back is bad please?
I want to click it back because its the sizing most likely to get bluff raised and I imagine there are far more bluffs in his range than thin value hands. so by clicking it back we might lose a little when he calls with a few combos of worse but we can induce more bluffs to balance out that loss. or am i being overly optimistic?
JCgrind
Legend
Silver Level
i agree with you about CiB duggs.
tbh when i first saw Baudib mention it i didnt know what it meant so i just ignored it lol. i have since looked it up and have been experimenting with it and i think it would be good OTR in this hand as i think hes raising as a bluff much more than he is for value since he checked back turn
EDIT: CiB is hard with table ninja lol
tbh when i first saw Baudib mention it i didnt know what it meant so i just ignored it lol. i have since looked it up and have been experimenting with it and i think it would be good OTR in this hand as i think hes raising as a bluff much more than he is for value since he checked back turn
EDIT: CiB is hard with table ninja lol
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
oh hmm thought you meant cib so he'd call more than if we raise more, wasn't considering him 4b bluffing this river. I don't really think people 4b bluff on rivers hardly ever so don't think it makes that big a difference. I was just saying that the range of hands that raise this river for value (thus would consider calling the 3b) is generally going to be composed of strong hands and even if he initially was gonna r/f a lot of the time they'll talk themselves into calling anyway if we just make it 2.5x or so.
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
And in terms of flatting AA preflop I don't like it at all in just about any situation. First off in a lot of spots you'll get into 3b/4b/5b wars and you'll have the opportunity to play a big pot with the nuts. I just think generally though when you have a hand that has at the very worst like 80% equity you should be looking to put more money into the pot every chance you get. Obviously that's overly simplistic but the point is you get such value from raising that you'd have to come up with some fairly ridiculous assumptions for opponents to make flatting better. For every time you get a hand that would have folded to the 3b to put a lot of money postflop you're going to get AK that misses or pairs that get overs and slow way down.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
but if there range is wide and you havent established an aggressive dynamic they just wont have a 4b bluff range v you. and there will be spots where there range is super wide so the number of hands you lose value to are far outweighed by the hands that would be r/f and continuing postflop. with any sort of aggressive dynamics lowering the SPR can only be a good thing.
hackmeplz
Sleep Faster
Silver Level
I mean the issue is not only do they have to be passive/fold-happy preflop they have to be aggro or stationy postflop and that's kind of a weird combo to see. I don't 3b AA because I think they'll 4b bluff a lot, I 3b AA because he can call with a lot of hands that will end up putting more money into the pot with a preflop 3b than he will to a call.