$10 NLHE 6-max: TPTK OOP facing triple barrel

[Aleksei]

you say this like it's a bad thing

It's one of those things that's inherently out of balance and exploitative, like overbetting. I'm not saying don't do it, but it shouldn't be a standard line.

It's not hard to balance at all.

It is unless you c/r bluff those boards a ton, which is kind of an expensive bluff (ergo usually not worth it unless villain is a scared nit that will even fold TP or better).

Thing is that unless your opponent is really bad, there is like nothing worse than TPTK that will call a check-raise. Check raises are scary, and rightly so (hero calling a CR usually has to work at least 40% of the time to be profitable depending on sizing -- that's not a given unless you bluff that spot too much to profit from it).

I think this is pretty much terrible but I'd like to know how you're in a position to CR QQ on 985 anyway....

I might not be on 6max depending on Villain, but I play mostly HU. I suppose a better example in 6max would be AA, but the point is that if you have a powerful made hand with few redraws, in a board that has loads of draws, you wanna make Villain pay dearly for continuing. xr-ing is a good way to do that.

 

[acky100]

It's one of those things that's inherently out of balance and exploitative, like overbetting. I'm not saying don't do it, but it shouldn't be a standard line.

this is just plain wrong, nothing about the nature of overbetting makes it unbalanced or exploitative unless you use it in an unbalanced or exploitative way

 

[Aleksei]

this is just plain wrong, nothing about the nature of overbetting makes it unbalanced or exploitative unless you use it in an unbalanced or exploitative way

At the bluffing frequencies needed to make Villain indifferent to calling an overbet you're value-cutting yourself. Ergo, it is only more profitable to overbet as opposed to betting full pot or less if Villain is folding or calling out of balance.

Ergo, it's an unbalanced move.

 

[acky100]

Im just gonna stop already because it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Aleksei]

Your EV is always less than 1 with an overbet unless villain always folds or he always calls. By comparison your EV on a pot-sized bet is always 1 if you show up with worse 50% of the time or less. Because if, for instance, you pot it as a bluff half the time and Villain always calls losing your bet on a bluff is offset by winning Villain's bet on a value bet (on the other end of the spectrum if Villain always folds you always win the pot for an EV of 1). The same happens at lower bluffing frequencies because your losses on called bluffs are exactly offset by your wins on called value bets (both frequencies are identical because Villain doesn't know if you're bluffing or not). If you bet less than the pot, then your EV is somewhere between 1 and the pot depending on fold equity.

 

[pocketehs]

yo i dont even know why you keep bringing up overbetting ITT. No one overbet at all in thsi hand anyway lol

 

[pocketehs]

It's hit or fold, but that's not what I'm saying either. I'm saying c/cing potentially two streets w/ A high is not profitable against most opponents. That's why position is such a huge advantage in rotational poker games. If you call the flop, you don't know the ratio of how often your opponent is bluffing or checking the turn. And even against the range you gave, you're behind by the time you get to the river most of the time. You're too vulnerable to being bluffed off your hand, despite your odds/equity.

Ive been thinking about this a lot lately John. Im going to fool around in PT4 today to see how Im doing in spots like this. For instance, BTN/CO open, I call in the SB/BB with a hand like AQ/AJ/KQ because if I 3bet I usually fold all the hands that beat and he calls or 4bets hands that beat me.

I just feel like when I call in these spots I have to x/f a lot of flops when i miss for the reasons you said above.

 

[Aleksei]

yo i dont even know why you keep bringing up overbetting ITT. No one overbet at all in thsi hand anyway lol

I know, I brought it up first because aggrotards love overbet bluffing so it seemed relevant that it didn't happen.

 

[Yoshimiii]

I know, I brought it up first because aggrotards love overbet bluffing so it seemed relevant that it didn't happen.

You are generalizing all "aggrotards" by saying that they all love to over bet bluff... This isn't true, I was up against a maniac today who bluffed 100% of hands when he misses, he didn't overbet once. Also it would only be relevant (and it's not relevant as the statement you made is just incorrect) if their was any over betting in this hand.
Unless you have a specific read on a player, you can't just say when "aggrotards" over bet they are bluffing 100% of the time or they are only betting for value 100% of the time.

I don't see an overbet in this hand

poker stars $0.08/$0.16 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2193477
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BB: $31.25
UTG: $22.00
MP: $16.00
CO: $19.15
BTN: $17.12
Hero (SB): $18.37

Pre Flop: ($0.24) Hero is SB with K ♠ Q ♣
1 fold, MP raises to $0.48, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.48, Hero calls $0.40, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.60) 6 ♣ 9 ♦ Q ♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, BTN bets $0.88, Hero calls $0.88, MP folds

Turn: ($3.36) 2 ♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.44, Hero calls $1.44

River: ($6.24) 6 ♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.45, Hero calls $3.45

Final Pot: $13.14
BTN shows 5 ♥ T ♠ (a pair of Sixes)
Hero shows K ♠ Q ♣ (two pair, Queens and Sixes)
Hero wins $12.55
(Rake: $0.59)

 

[John A]

Ive been thinking about this a lot lately John. Im going to fool around in PT4 today to see how Im doing in spots like this. For instance, BTN/CO open, I call in the SB/BB with a hand like AQ/AJ/KQ because if I 3bet I usually fold all the hands that beat and he calls or 4bets hands that beat me.

I just feel like when I call in these spots I have to x/f a lot of flops when i miss for the reasons you said above.

That's the best way to learn. Run some filters, look at your play, and discuss it with others.

FYI I've never advocated that 3-betting is the the only option in these spots (actually never mentioned 3-betting). It is an option, and quite honestly much more profitable for most players at micro and smaller stakes to do than c/cing and taking tricker post flop lines on later streets in general.

What I am saying though is that if you flat AQo OOP, then c/cing the flop in most scenarios is not profitable. There will be some cases that it is. By and large it's not going to be a profitable line for most players imho for the reasons I've stated in this thread.