$10 NLHE 6-max: Flop the nuts line check

acky100

acky100

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Thats what its all about, continuing ranges. Why 3bet a 16/14's UTG open with QQ in the sb if he folds everything but KK+ AK? It's only logical to call with AK vs one of these guys, maybe 2p2 said it wasn't the standard line years ago so people just auto 3bet without thinking why, but whatever, i'd rather stick to good logic.
 
JCgrind

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Thats what its all about, continuing ranges. Why 3bet a 16/14's UTG open with QQ in the sb if he folds everything but KK+ AK? It's only logical to call with AK vs one of these guys, maybe 2p2 said it wasn't the standard line years ago so people just auto 3bet without thinking why, but whatever, i'd rather stick to good logic.

Glad at least 1 person agrees with me on something im 100% positive about
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Glad at least 1 person agrees with me on something im 100% positive about
Well if you think he's only continuing with KK+/AK, 3bet that QTo and he's gonna fold ~84% of the time. We all know though that like 98% of micro stakes villains he'll flat way too many pairs to try and set mine so 3betting hands like QQ/AK is certainly going to be more profitable than flatting them OOP.
 
acky100

acky100

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Yep i agree, but the point is the same, if a guy's continuing range is really tight, 3betting can turn a spot where we're a 70% favourite or thereabouts to a spot where when we 3bet we're around 50% against their range and are out of position. For most players though and especially at these limits 3betting is going to be the play, unless he is folding 80% to 3bets then we should probably just call and 3bet suited Ax junk here.
 
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baudib1

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They ahead of his opening range yes, but they arent ahead of his continuing range at all?

Yes because no one has a continuing range of just KK+.

Are there really people left who f3bet at 80%? I really doubt it.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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How come Acky still doesn't understand why we 3-bet? Of course their range gets stronger when we 3-bet and they call! But the 10% equity we lose is just fine when you consider all the other benefits we gain. ****, preflop equity isn't even that important, all the money goes in postflop.

Seriously, I just need to get off my tablet and spell it out for Acky in one epic post.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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Yep i agree, but the point is the same, if a guy's continuing range is really tight, 3betting can turn a spot where we're a 70% favourite or thereabouts to a spot where when we 3bet we're around 50% against their range and are out of position. For most players though and especially at these limits 3betting is going to be the play, unless he is folding 80% to 3bets then we should probably just call and 3bet suited Ax junk here.

agree

Yes because no one has a continuing range of just KK+.

Are there really people left who f3bet at 80%? I really doubt it.

aprilee's fold to 3b was 100% over 195 hands. you keep missing this, his 4b range is AA, KK, continuing range is likely QQ TT JJ AK maybe AQs, so ye, there is. and fyi its pretty standard with these uber tight types.

We all know though that like 98% of micro stakes villains he'll flat way too many pairs to try and set mine so 3betting hands like QQ/AK is certainly going to be more profitable than flatting them OOP.

again, fold to 3b of 100%, as well as the fact that when hes set mining im going to Cbet the flop and most times get folds when he misses, get stacked when he hits. mid pairs might call 1/2 streets as overpairs, but then theyre folding rivers/scarecards, whereas theyre much happier getting it in when the pot wasnt a 3b one

How come Acky still doesn't understand why we 3-bet? Of course their range gets stronger when we 3-bet and they call! But the 10% equity we lose is just fine when you consider all the other benefits we gain. ****, preflop equity isn't even that important, all the money goes in postflop.

Seriously, I just need to get off my tablet and spell it out for Acky in one epic post.

benefits like what?
we 3b and get raised we have to fold
we 3b and we get called were 52% vs his assumed range OOP
we flat and keep his worse hands in and are ~65-70% vs his range
 
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baudib1

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When did you say his F3b was 100? WTF. I assure you that is not standard. And if it is, it means you should be 3-betting people like this every time they open, with ATC, and NEVER flat.

benefits like what?
we 3b and get raised we have to fold
we 3b and we get called were 52% vs his assumed range OOP
we flat and keep his worse hands in and are ~65-70% vs his range

You are making math arguments without understanding any of the math. Saying "we 3b and we get raised we have to fold" vs. someone who allegedly f3bet 100% makes 0 sense. That's like saying "don't raise with KK because someone might have AA."
"we 3b and we get called were 52% vs. his assumed range OOP" is an argument FOR 3-betting.

All of your arguments, incidentally, point strongly toward folding QT pre -- you're 36% at best vs. his range. If you don't think you can play AK OOP profitably when you're 52%, then how the how are you going to do so with QT?

Given what a train wreck of a hand this is that you posted, you really should just fold pre.
 
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swingro

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Lol. This is interesting. I think i learned more about the SB play from this post than all the other stuff i read. I do not have a clear answer in my head but i trust the starting hands charts that others made.
 
JCgrind

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When did you say his F3b was 100? WTF. I assure you that is not standard. And if it is, it means you should be 3-betting people like this every time they open, with ATC, and NEVER flat.

i didnt specifically list the stat, i said he has 12% PFR, (therefore lower in MP), and is extremely tight and straightforward pre. i went back through my DB for the fold to 3b stat. and yes youre right, i should be 3b bluffing him every day

You are making math arguments without understanding any of the math. Saying "we 3b and we get raised we have to fold" vs. someone who allegedly f3bet 100% makes 0 sense. That's like saying "don't raise with KK because someone might have AA."
theoretically yes, this does mean 3b/fold KK, and vs his UTG 4b range this is arguably correct, because if were both just shoving AA and KK were only ever coolering eachother back and forth and never making any money. BUT were both not stupid and realise that his fold to 3b is a sample size error. Therefore, we treat him like the player he is- a reg tag/nit. these guys are not shoving QQ pre (against non fish anyway). their 4b/shove range is AA KK exclusively and a reasonable assumption is that they call 3bs with TT JJ QQ AK maybe AQs, ie, the top of their range

"we 3b and we get called were 52% vs. his assumed range OOP" is an argument FOR 3-betting.
All of your arguments, incidentally, point strongly toward folding QT pre -- you're 36% at best vs. his range. If you don't think you can play AK OOP profitably when you're 52%, then how the how are you going to do so with QT?

youre all correct in saying that my logic dictates that i should 3b or fold QTs pre. i totally agree. flatting completely goes against my argument on 3bing and ranges, however, this doesnt make my argument incorrect, it just means that youre all correct in saying that i should fold QTs pre, which i agreed with and acknowledged is the standard, and correct play

again, youve totally missed the point about AK. i can most definitely play this hand profitably OOP vs his OPENING RANGE, but vs his CONTINUING VS 3B RANGE i will have to massively outplay him postflop in order to make any profit long term, because we will both be going into the hand with ~50% equity vs eachothers range but i will have the added disadvantage of being out of position.

clear enough?

EDIT: f3b @ 100% isnt standard, but vs these kinda guys 80% is.
 
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JCgrind

JCgrind

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sick of explaining this to so many people, over and over again. if you dont wanna believe me about it/dont understand the concept, here you go


you can thank me later
 
JCgrind

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"aprilee's fold to 3b was 100% over 195 hands. you keep missing this, his 4b range is AA, KK, continuing range is likely QQ TT JJ AK maybe AQs, so ye, there is. and fyi its pretty standard with these uber tight types."

just realised what you were 'when did you say that, WTF' raging about....

notice how theres a nice bold full stop there? yeah what you were missing was that his 4b range is AA, KK... not that his fold to 3b was 100%
 
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baudib1

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No one is arguing that his 4-bet range is AA, KK.
 
JCgrind

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No one is arguing that his 4-bet range is AA, KK.

Lol cos that's the point behind my post. Take it or leave it, I don't mind. If you have a valid point to put forward by all means please do, I'm here to learn.
 
bgomez89

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Fold pre and please bet the turn and river next time. I'm begging you.
 
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