$10 NLHE 6-max: Dealing with limp/min-bet aggro (fish?) strategy

[Mercurius]

Occasionally see this at the micros and it’s a really puzzling strategy to play against. Just got dominated by someone I viewed as a fish essentially playing any two cards, limping and then re-raising if you raise or massively sizing up the next street if you call.

Impossible to know what they’re holding and I kept missing the board entirely and having to fold out. Eventually looked them up and obv lost a stack to 97o.....any thoughts on how you deal with these players (other than getting up and walking away)?

Villain is button in first hand and UTG in the other hands

And so it begins...

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $10.00 (100 bb)
MP: $15.53 (155 bb)
CO: $5.56 (56 bb)
BU: $19.95 (200 bb)
SB (Hero): $10.21 (102 bb)
BB: $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with 4♠ 4♥
UTG raises to $0.25, 2 players fold, BTN calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.20, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.85) 7♠ 5♣ 8♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, UTG calls $0.10

Turn: ($1.15) 9♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets $0.50, SB (Hero) folds, UTG folds

Total pot: $1.15 (Rake: $0.05)
BU wins $1.10


I see you aggro fish.....


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 5 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $17.56 (176 bb)
CO (Hero): $10.21 (102 bb)
BU: $10.00 (100 bb)
SB: $11.77 (118 bb)
BB: $16.05 (161 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with A♣ K♥
UTG raises to $0.20, Hero 3-bets to $0.55, 3 players fold, UTG calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.25) 8♦ 8♣ 4♦ (2 players)
UTG bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($1.45) T♠ (2 players)
UTG bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70

River: ($2.85) 3♦ (2 players)
UTG bets $2.70, Hero calls $2.70

Total pot: $8.25 (Rake: $0.37)

Showdown:
UTG shows J♣ 3♠ (two pair, Eights and Threes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 32%, Flop: 21%, Turn: 14%, River: 100%)

CO (Hero) mucks A♣ K♥ (a pair of Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 68%, Flop: 79%, Turn: 86%, River: 0%)

UTG wins $7.88

In between I’m folded out of like 5-10 hands as I can’t call down for 1/3 of my stack when whiffing the board which is what he forces with his bets


Obvs shows up with the goods 2 hands later


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $21.39 (214 bb)
MP (Hero): $6.16 (62 bb)
CO: $10.00 (100 bb)
BU: $11.72 (117 bb)
SB: $15.95 (160 bb)
BB: $6.22 (62 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with A♥ J♣
UTG raises to $0.20, Hero 3-bets to $0.65, 4 players fold, UTG calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.45) A♠ 7♠ 7♥ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.59, UTG calls $0.59

Turn: ($2.63) 6♣ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.15, UTG raises to $3.60, Hero raises to $4.92 (all-in), UTG calls $1.32

River: ($12.47) T♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $12.47 (Rake: $0.56)

Showdown:
MP (Hero) shows A♥ J♣ (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 64%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

UTG shows 9♠ 7♣ (three of a kind, Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 36%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

UTG wins $11.91



So how do you deal with this? Was I the fish here? Did he just run hot playing with garbage and happened to get looked up the times he hit?

Do you leave the table or just fold out 50+BBs over hand after hand of missing the board until you have something to play back?

 

[gustav197poker]

I remember what you say, because I remember when I regularly played micro stakes. Just don't lose focus with those players. They have a strategy A, which consists of cheating with good hands, doing limp and then more limp to confuse. He plays against them with the nuts or the almost nuts, because his preflop range of hands is usually very wide. When they show too much aggressiveness, make sure you have the best possible hand. That is the advice that I can give you regarding those types of micro players

Going back to the first hand, believe it or not 4-4 is too weak a hand and from the small blind we are not required to defend it. The reason is the set of ranges that are still active in hand: UTG the opener and BTN. Remember that UTG represents a very strong position and then the button decides to call. This could easily be a preflop fold. We also have information that the villain (BTN) is wide range, this means that our hand is interfering in his area and in that sense, we are behind low combinations such as 5-5 and 6-6. We tied 4-4 and beat 2-2 and 3-3 from preflop. It is not good to balance down with this villain, because we must remember that we are playing in a 3-way pot. Which means that UTG has us dominated from the middle structure of pockets (7-7; 8-8; +).
As played I think, the best option is the fold on the turn. This is because we are blocking a lower straight and we are below of better combinations.
In the second hand I think you played incorrectly for NL10. The reason is that the villains will be able to play any hand and the ranges will not be considered. But on this board, hands that pay a triple barrel (in NL10) should be exclusively hands of value. And the minimum limit in this case is AT, because a super wide villain could bluff with minor double pairs.
The third hand is a cooler and it is very difficult to escape from it, especially when you have a short stack. I recommend that you always play with a full stack of 100 bb. That will help make better postflop decisions, because you will have a better SPR margin that will allow you to get out of unfavorable situations, with a greater capacity to make exploitative folds.
Greetings.

 

[Aballinamion]

Occasionally see this at the micros and it’s a really puzzling strategy to play against. Just got dominated by someone I viewed as a fish essentially playing any two cards, limping and then re-raising if you raise or massively sizing up the next street if you call.

Impossible to know what they’re holding and I kept missing the board entirely and having to fold out. Eventually looked them up and obv lost a stack to 97o.....any thoughts on how you deal with these players (other than getting up and walking away)?

Villain is button in first hand and UTG in the other hands

And so it begins...

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $10.00 (100 bb)
MP: $15.53 (155 bb)
CO: $5.56 (56 bb)
BU: $19.95 (200 bb)
SB (Hero): $10.21 (102 bb)
BB: $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with 4♠ 4♥
UTG raises to $0.25, 2 players fold, BTN calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.20, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.85) 7♠ 5♣ 8♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, UTG calls $0.10

Turn: ($1.15) 9♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets $0.50, SB (Hero) folds, UTG folds

Total pot: $1.15 (Rake: $0.05)
BU wins $1.10


I see you aggro fish.....


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 5 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $17.56 (176 bb)
CO (Hero): $10.21 (102 bb)
BU: $10.00 (100 bb)
SB: $11.77 (118 bb)
BB: $16.05 (161 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with A♣ K♥
UTG raises to $0.20, Hero 3-bets to $0.55, 3 players fold, UTG calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.25) 8♦ 8♣ 4♦ (2 players)
UTG bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($1.45) T♠ (2 players)
UTG bets $0.70, Hero calls $0.70

River: ($2.85) 3♦ (2 players)
UTG bets $2.70, Hero calls $2.70

Total pot: $8.25 (Rake: $0.37)

Showdown:
UTG shows J♣ 3♠ (two pair, Eights and Threes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 32%, Flop: 21%, Turn: 14%, River: 100%)

CO (Hero) mucks A♣ K♥ (a pair of Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 68%, Flop: 79%, Turn: 86%, River: 0%)

UTG wins $7.88

In between I’m folded out of like 5-10 hands as I can’t call down for 1/3 of my stack when whiffing the board which is what he forces with his bets


Obvs shows up with the goods 2 hands later


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $21.39 (214 bb)
MP (Hero): $6.16 (62 bb)
CO: $10.00 (100 bb)
BU: $11.72 (117 bb)
SB: $15.95 (160 bb)
BB: $6.22 (62 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with A♥ J♣
UTG raises to $0.20, Hero 3-bets to $0.65, 4 players fold, UTG calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.45) A♠ 7♠ 7♥ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.59, UTG calls $0.59

Turn: ($2.63) 6♣ (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.15, UTG raises to $3.60, Hero raises to $4.92 (all-in), UTG calls $1.32

River: ($12.47) T♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $12.47 (Rake: $0.56)

Showdown:
MP (Hero) shows A♥ J♣ (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 64%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

UTG shows 9♠ 7♣ (three of a kind, Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 36%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

UTG wins $11.91



So how do you deal with this? Was I the fish here? Did he just run hot playing with garbage and happened to get looked up the times he hit?

Do you leave the table or just fold out 50+BBs over hand after hand of missing the board until you have something to play back?

You are following default strategies to play against recreational players, is one possibility.
Another possibility is that you are getting tilted, because you are losing a lot for players who are clearly dumb ones, and this irritates you a lot, thus, you cannot play your best game.
One more possibility is that you are beginning to level versus recreational players, just because we know that sometimes they play any two cards and go with any value to the river.

The problem of the recreational player is that it almost never bluffs and when it calls us postflop, you bet this fish/recreational has something, and we must be very aware of that, they are playing almost 99% of times faced-up, so when they decide to give action to a particular hand it is because they have us beat and we must accept this fact ASAP and muck our hand and wait for another opportunity.

I don't follow Nathan William advice anymore, to blow the pot when we are playing versus recreational ones, because the variance has no sides and even the worst player in the world can get a hot streak, a hot session where everything happens on its favor, and when fishes are getting luck, I don't need to throw my blinds away just because of the excuse that the opponents are bad, etc, we know all of that story and we are going to find some ego excuses, for example "in the long run it compensates", but at the micros we are not playing for the long run, we are playing like recreational, sort of it, we are playing to get luck in a short period of time and level up, grind to the next higher stake.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[teh_colonel_saigon]

So everyone agrees hand 3 was a cooler- you actually played it well with the 3bet iso- although it didn't work for you, you had a good plan and stuck to it.

Hand 1 I think is OK, so I disagree with Gustav... pocket pairs are good to flop big vs UTG opening range, and the fish on the BTN has pocket pairs as a proportionally low part of his range. I think it's fine.

So for hand #2 I have some thoughts/questions... This will be a pretty typical spot versus this player so it's worth while to look at it.

Would you normally Cbet there? Would you Cbet this player on this board normally (without the donk bet)?

I think if the answer is yes, you raise him. I understand the principal of allowing him to bluff... but really? This is a dryish board and V has a super wide range (again, wide ranges have lower amounts of pocket pairs proportionally) so I think you put in a raise.

You already established that this player is min-donking with air (some players do it with top pair +) so put him in a tough spot instead... even if he calls, he'll likely check the turn...

Also, what pair + hands of yours are flatting that min bet on the flop? Really I think I'm only flat calling if I flopped quads or a house... (and against this player wth I'd probably bet!) even trip 8s I'd put in a raise, and I'm definitely raising with even under pairs for protection/value from draws. In that way you let him know you are weak... although in principle this fish is a bad player, he's not completely stupid and there is some logic to his bad strategy- i.e. the river bet with bottom pair!

I say raise flop, re-evaluate turn.

 

[johnsulliv]

Hi, great questions, ask myself the same thing many times and all the time.
most of the time driven out by tilt as you say.


Hand 1
I think hand one should be folded on the flop, if your trying to catch someone out, drawing to the bottom end of a straight is not the way to do it. Didn't flop a set?, move on.

Hand 2
The three bet is too light, in my understanding, betting 6x, makes it more likely the chance of you getting a fold when you c-bet the flop and/or shove the turn.
imagine the BB used in the hand and how better they could have been used to exert more pressure on the villan.

Hand 3
Perhaps calling with all unsuited broadways against these types of players will be more beneficial for us than 3-betting them, and keeping the pot smaller until we know we are good.
As good as AJo looks against loose aggros, top pair on a paired board is a very fragile holding and nothing special at the time.

we need to stack these guys. lol

good luck

 

[Mercurius]

So everyone agrees hand 3 was a cooler- you actually played it well with the 3bet iso- although it didn't work for you, you had a good plan and stuck to it.

Hand 1 I think is OK, so I disagree with Gustav... pocket pairs are good to flop big vs UTG opening range, and the fish on the BTN has pocket pairs as a proportionally low part of his range. I think it's fine.

So for hand #2 I have some thoughts/questions... This will be a pretty typical spot versus this player so it's worth while to look at it.

Would you normally Cbet there? Would you Cbet this player on this board normally (without the donk bet)?

I think if the answer is yes, you raise him. I understand the principal of allowing him to bluff... but really? This is a dryish board and V has a super wide range (again, wide ranges have lower amounts of pocket pairs proportionally) so I think you put in a raise.

You already established that this player is min-donking with air (some players do it with top pair +) so put him in a tough spot instead... even if he calls, he'll likely check the turn...

Also, what pair + hands of yours are flatting that min bet on the flop? Really I think I'm only flat calling if I flopped quads or a house... (and against this player wth I'd probably bet!) even trip 8s I'd put in a raise, and I'm definitely raising with even under pairs for protection/value from draws. In that way you let him know you are weak... although in principle this fish is a bad player, he's not completely stupid and there is some logic to his bad strategy- i.e. the river bet with bottom pair!

I say raise flop, re-evaluate turn.

Agree with everything you’ve said. On hand 2, I should have raised but think there had been other situations where I’d raised it to what I would have cbet and then he just reraises massively over that.

I figured he’d make his donk large bet on the turn so if I could connect with the board I’d turn up the heat on him then. Overall not great play but I knew he had nothing and was a clown, sadly he caught the river where I definitely should have just folded.....

Agree with Carlos an element of the losses was tilt, but it’s more calling down where the betting says you shouldn’t because you know they have nothing (like calling 3bets OOP with 97o...), rather than aggro tilt, but agree should manage it better.


I was thinking one solution is possibly to stop 3betting entirely (vs this type of V) and open up your range - flatting a lot of hands and let him hurt himself when you catch the flop and bets into you? This is how I approach my home game with mates, I play 50% of hands but only min raise as I know I can win post flop and my mates won’t fold with any face card so when you start 3 betting and cbetting properly you end up losing big pots to a guy holding Q5s who hits a 2 pair...

 

[blueskies]

I find these guys much easier to play against than the aggro ones who know to use position.

Just have to be patient and not go crazy. Since they play a wide range, they really could have a hand most competent players won't play. So, assume nothing. Exercise pot control and don't commit your stack with only top pair.

Sometimes they will outflop and outdraw you, that's just the way it is.

Over the long run, these guys are easy money.

 

[Tigroslav]

Tighten up your range and plump up your bet sizing (3,5 bb open 5-6 bb raise when he limps)
Go real aggro on all streets pot pot shove.
This works for me against this annoying style.