$10 NLHE 6-max: 3! pot 2 pair... too thin[again!?]?

[loafaBREAD]

6-max Regular game.

I remember thinking that there are many worse hands than can call here otr. But here's today's villain...

V: 253 hands, F3b: 43 (3/7 times), 28/17 AF: 1 WTSD: 34 4b: 0

Not sure V's stats on me, but the past 63 hands at the table I am a 32/31, 3B:13, I imagine if he has more stats the numbers would be slightly lower, but he likely has a wide range he calls with.

For hands than just call, call...call- there are so many that I beat.

Problem is V is looking like a bad-reg calling station (lol I think he posts here too.... sorry bro! love you!) so he'd flat with a lot of hands that might otherwise get aggressive.

Also, I've generally had some problem with 2 pair hands... those MFers need a lot of protection to not get counterfit. I guess we check them on bad turns/rivers? ITH I thought Ts wasn't the worst card in the deck, but it was getting close!

Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players


UTG: 81 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 109.8 BB
SB: 120.8 BB
Hero (BB): 166.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:club: 6:club:

fold, fold, BTN raises to 2.8 BB, fold, Hero raises to 10.5 BB, BTN calls 7.7 BB

Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) 7:spade: 9:diamond: K:spade:
Hero bets 8.7 BB, BTN calls 8.7 BB

Turn: (38.9 BB, 2 players) 6:heart:
Hero bets 23.6 BB, BTN calls 23.6 BB

River: (86.1 BB, 2 players) T:spade:
Hero bets 99.4 BB, BTN calls 67 BB and is all-in

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Seeing a F3B stat that sticky I would be discouraged from bloating the pot OOP with 7 high. Tiny sample tho so given the more reliable VP/PR stats this may be a bit cautious. I like the flop play. Given stacks and the bingo turn I would be bombing this turn probably for pot. As you mention two pair, and especially bottom two, can be more fragile than they look sometimes. As played I don't think this river is as thin as the other hand. I think the question here is, are we folding to the jam if we check? And given it's less than a pot sized bet and we still have flushes and sets in our range I don't mind getting in first here. My thought is that most decent players will jam here with value, bluffs, and may even turn weaker Kx into a bluff so checking puts us in a really tough spot where we may be overfolding and betting anything is committing. It's a really bad river card as you mentioned. But there aren't a lot of good river cards at all, which is why I like bombing turn. May even go as far as a jam as once we pot it we are only leaving V less than a 1/2 pot bet behind on the river.

 

[Sidetracked]

Perhaps one of the worst cards in the deck for the river.

A lot of the hands that you post, you seem to end up in really big pots with somewhat marginal hands. May I respectfully suggest toning down some of your aggression on earlier streets, thereby presenting yourself with less bloated pots and easier decisions later in the hand.

At $10NL, you can still do very well by playing a solid, value based game. WTSD of 34% is pretty high, so you'll be needing to show down a lot vs this villain. 2 pr in a vacuum is a pretty strong hand, but on that board, becomes little more than a bluff catcher.

 

[arenaci]

why not bet 1/3 pot on the river and fold to a raise??

 

[gustav197poker]

I can see that you are a tough competitive player to knock down when you have a hand. I agree with the previous posts, perhaps it is best to be more cautious with this board texture. Don't think you have too big a range you being 31/32. You are far from a manic image. If you were a 77/34, could we represent a bluff like 6-5o at 10NL with our OTR overbet? I really don't know, because the board is too wet.
As for the villain, he also seems like a competent player for this hand.
The WTSD parameter needs a larger sample size to be representative. You will need at least 1000 hands of sample for this data to have the minimum necessary consistency. However I don't think this villain continues to call without protecting his rank. The BTN could call with KT, considering that a bit it limited the combo draws. When we look at the board it appears that 6-7s is outmatched by several OTR hands. However OTT is the place where we can be more aggressive, the overbet would work better here since we could get the maximum value the times we face a villain of a appearances a bit wider range.
Greetings.

 

[loafaBREAD]

Perhaps one of the worst cards in the deck for the river.

A lot of the hands that you post, you seem to end up in really big pots with somewhat marginal hands. May I respectfully suggest toning down some of your aggression on earlier streets, thereby presenting yourself with less bloated pots and easier decisions later in the hand.

At $10NL, you can still do very well by playing a solid, value based game. WTSD of 34% is pretty high, so you'll be needing to show down a lot vs this villain. 2 pr in a vacuum is a pretty strong hand, but on that board, becomes little more than a bluff catcher.

All input is welcome, even if it hurts! :dong: I do appreciate it, really.

What would be a fix?

All I can think of is developing a stronger check range on flops/turns, but I'm not sure how to do this profitably-

example generic line with TPMK- bet flop, check call turn, river ??? I dislike losing initiative in betting b/c donking seems so strong and V can check back/pot control if we are OOP.

I especially have trouble with this in 3! pots- I don't want to check/give up with air, so I end up cbetting 100% of my range most flops, or I am just check calling with top set, etc
(check range polarized btw give ups and the nuts). It's too big of an issue to put into one post, lol, but any thoughts you have on this would be helpful.

@Arenaci- You're right, against this player I could have messed around with bet sizing to achieve better results. I actually agree with c0rnbr34d with a Turn bomb though, it just makes more sense, not knowing the river run out

 

[loafaBREAD]

I can see that you are a tough competitive player to knock down when you have a hand. I agree with the previous posts, perhaps it is best to be more cautious with this board texture. Don't think you have too big a range you being 31/32. You are far from a manic image. If you were a 77/34, could we represent a bluff like 6-5o at 10NL with our OTR overbet? I really don't know, because the board is too wet.
As for the villain, he also seems like a competent player for this hand.
The WTSD parameter needs a larger sample size to be representative. You will need at least 1000 hands of sample for this data to have the minimum necessary consistency. However I don't think this villain continues to call without protecting his rank. The BTN could call with KT, considering that a bit it limited the combo draws. When we look at the board it appears that 6-7s is outmatched by several OTR hands. However OTT is the place where we can be more aggressive, the overbet would work better here since we could get the maximum value the times we face a villain of a appearances a bit wider range.
Greetings.

Thanks for the positive words, you've always been helpful to people on this board!

I'll look into turn overbets- it's an interesting concept that I haven't seen too much. I'm generally not interested in fancy plays but it seems like it can have practical applications, esp. in 3!/4! pots

FYI V had 68ss. V should have jammed the turn, which would put us in a bind, though I'd be prone to call vs. typical V regs.

 

[eetenor]

6-max Regular game.

I remember thinking that there are many worse hands than can call here otr. But here's today's villain...

V: 253 hands, F3b: 43 (3/7 times), 28/17 AF: 1 WTSD: 34 4b: 0

Not sure V's stats on me, but the past 63 hands at the table I am a 32/31, 3B:13, I imagine if he has more stats the numbers would be slightly lower, but he likely has a wide range he calls with.

For hands than just call, call...call- there are so many that I beat.

Problem is V is looking like a bad-reg calling station (lol I think he posts here too.... sorry bro! love you!) so he'd flat with a lot of hands that might otherwise get aggressive.

Also, I've generally had some problem with 2 pair hands... those MFers need a lot of protection to not get counterfit. I guess we check them on bad turns/rivers? ITH I thought Ts wasn't the worst card in the deck, but it was getting close!

Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players


UTG: 81 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 109.8 BB
SB: 120.8 BB
Hero (BB): 166.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7♣ 6♣

fold, fold, BTN raises to 2.8 BB, fold, Hero raises to 10.5 BB, BTN calls 7.7 BB

Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) 7♠ 9♦ K♠
Hero bets 8.7 BB, BTN calls 8.7 BB

Turn: (38.9 BB, 2 players) 6♥
Hero bets 23.6 BB, BTN calls 23.6 BB

River: (86.1 BB, 2 players) T♠
Hero bets 99.4 BB, BTN calls 67 BB and is all-in

Thank U 4 Posting

V is for villain


Ok we bluff raise hoping to get folds then hit bottom pair and build a pot why?
We also as an aggro bet 4.5x, is that a standard AA in the BB type sizing for this game?
Our stats look aggro as hell so our V can slow play us expecting to get stacks easily.
So when we see that flop, there is no way we can discount KK. 99 AA AK QJs QQ JJ 1010
We bet flop small- would we 4.5x AA KK preflop then bet small on K high wet board vs the BTN?

Turn is great for us we lead bigger but not big why?
We are now getting value from pairs and all we fear are draws but we give the V just under 3-1 to call a mistake by them with most of their draws but not a big mistake.

What range do you expect to fold?
What range do you expect to call?

Does our equity vs the calling range not greatly reduce when we are keeping in QsJs but folding out QdJd. If this bet does that but a larger bet does the exact same thing should we not be choosing the larger bet?
Should we also not be happy when the larger bet gets Kd10d to fold some of the time?

Where you aware of the V's stack size in game on the turn?
If so why choose a size that gives V a easier fold SPR when we shove, if we assume bottom 2 pair has +EV versus their range even on a 10s river?

We shove the 10s river card even though Js9s QsJs AsQs AsJs As9s As8s Qs9s 9s8s all play exactly this way vs aggro BB on BTN.

We cannot assume the V folds these hands on the turn to what they may think is a guy bluffing them.
In fact versus you as a perceived aggro player they may not fold any AXs on the turn.

They may fold one pair hands on that river which would be a disaster for us and only call 2 pair or better even more of a disaster.

If the V did call with QdJd they never fold that river to an aggro player when the flush comes.

Just some thoughts on what the V's strategy might have been.

Hope this helps

 

[loafaBREAD]

Thank U 4 Posting

V is for villain


Ok we bluff raise hoping to get folds then hit bottom pair and build a pot why?
We also as an aggro bet 4.5x, is that a standard AA in the BB type sizing for this game?
Our stats look aggro as hell so our V can slow play us expecting to get stacks easily.
So when we see that flop, there is no way we can discount KK. 99 AA AK QJs QQ JJ 1010
We bet flop small- would we 4.5x AA KK preflop then bet small on K high wet board vs the BTN?

Turn is great for us we lead bigger but not big why?
We are now getting value from pairs and all we fear are draws but we give the V just under 3-1 to call a mistake by them with most of their draws but not a big mistake.

What range do you expect to fold?
What range do you expect to call?

Does our equity vs the calling range not greatly reduce when we are keeping in QsJs but folding out QdJd. If this bet does that but a larger bet does the exact same thing should we not be choosing the larger bet?
Should we also not be happy when the larger bet gets Kd10d to fold some of the time?

Where you aware of the V's stack size in game on the turn?
If so why choose a size that gives V a easier fold SPR when we shove, if we assume bottom 2 pair has +EV versus their range even on a 10s river?

We shove the 10s river card even though Js9s QsJs AsQs AsJs As9s As8s Qs9s 9s8s all play exactly this way vs aggro BB on BTN.

We cannot assume the V folds these hands on the turn to what they may think is a guy bluffing them.
In fact versus you as a perceived aggro player they may not fold any AXs on the turn.

They may fold one pair hands on that river which would be a disaster for us and only call 2 pair or better even more of a disaster.

If the V did call with QdJd they never fold that river to an aggro player when the flush comes.

Just some thoughts on what the V's strategy might have been.

Hope this helps

Diggin up an old thread, eh?

I do like the bet on the flop. Our hand is vulnerable to V's air, I like betting for protection on a board that heavily favors us.

I agree the river was overpalyed- earlier in the thread some people suggested overbetting the turn, which is a strategy I like in this spot. This will give sticky draws a bad price, and V is inclined to bluff catch with his one pair hands.

I'm not really sure what all the points you're making are. If V has KK here.... whoop-di-doo, basil! WP. V will have all kinds of trashy Kx and FDs by the time we get to the turn.

Again, I goofed on the riv. Probably just check and hope he xs back. But a lot of his clingy hands got there, so we get put in a bad spot.

Thanks for the post!:captain:

 

[eetenor]

Diggin up an old thread, eh?

I do like the bet on the flop. Our hand is vulnerable to V's air, I like betting for protection on a board that heavily favors us.

I agree the river was overpalyed- earlier in the thread some people suggested overbetting the turn, which is a strategy I like in this spot. This will give sticky draws a bad price, and V is inclined to bluff catch with his one pair hands.

I'm not really sure what all the points you're making are. If V has KK here.... whoop-di-doo, basil! WP. V will have all kinds of trashy Kx and FDs by the time we get to the turn.

Again, I goofed on the riv. Probably just check and hope he xs back. But a lot of his clingy hands got there, so we get put in a bad spot.

Thanks for the post!:captain:

Thank U 4 Responding

V is 4 villain

I like to do thought exercises this thread popped up and I decided to post.

Based on the possibility the V adjusted their range based on the last 63 hands.

The KK point is reference to the direction our V's range may lean post flop. It would not be uncommon for a player such as this to trap KK but 4 bet AK so when we make 2 pair on the turn it is slightly less likely to be the near nuts than if the V played both AK and KK the same way. Also if the V is trapping more than loose calling there is much less air to worry about than made hands and good draws. So when we bet flop to protect from their air we could be betting into a very strong range 4 this board not a standard range.
This based on the possibility the V sees you as too aggro.

As I said this is a thought exercise involving a possible change in play by your V to a more exploitative trapping play with a tighter range with little air in it.

Opposite to the above thought exercise we consider a different adjusted range vs an aggro BB
It is entirely possible that this V would be calling with far more air and few premium holdings. In which case we can treat 76 as the nuts on the turn and not worry about KK as much. The lead out flop vs much more air is a strong play in this circumstance.

Third option standard play by V and as you said your only error on the river.

Thanks again for your reply

Hope you are getting good results with your 2 pair hands.

 

[John A]

River is a c/f unless you're playing a drooler.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

River is a c/f unless you're playing a drooler.

Actually escaped me somehow that the 8x one liner straight came in along with the flush and other better 2p hands. Initially I was worried about overfolding to river bets when checking but given this rather large oversight I agree river should be a x/f. There are just too many value combos and not enough bluffs.

 

[marvinsytan]

don't bomb the turn or else you'll explode your money, your hand is not the nuts, 3/4 pot bet is enough value don't overvalue your hand and just fold to jam

i agree just check fold the river

jamming river is pointless all worse hands will fold and all hands that beat you will snap call, you just made your V life easier