$10 NL HE Full Ring: WPTG Pace ~10NL - broadway straight, value bet on the river

[puzzlefish]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.05/$.10

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

Looking for a line check.

This 5NL Pace format on WPTG has 8 players per table, fast fold style, and UTG auto-straddles 10c. So essentially it becomes 10NL.

Hero is mid-position, villain is BB, no relevant history. Villain has the effective stack of $8ish.

Hero has QsTs.

Hero opens $0.24, folds around to Villain on BB who calls and straddle UTG folds.

Flop JcAd4h, Pot size $0.60

Villain donk bets $0.30, Hero calls (maybe should have raised here)

Turn JcAd4hKs, Pot size $1.20

Villain checks, Hero bets $0.60, Villain calls.

River JcAd4hKs8d, Pot size $2.40

Villain bets $1.20, Hero raises to $5, Villain calls

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
In a 3-blind structure you are supposed to be a little tighter from MP, because more players are yet to act, but this still seem like a fine open. Maybe you could go a bit larger, since there is 27c in dead money as opposed to 25c in a standard 10c/5c game.

Flop
It would be nice to have a BDFD to go along with the gutshot. But even so I think, you have to float this donk bet. Which he really should not be making on this board. So even just seeing this I will already take a mental note, that this is a bad player. I dont see any reason to raise though. He is likely not leading out with total nothing, and I dont want to start a big bluff against a bad player. This is usually a recipe for setting money on fire and tilt yourself, when he call you down with his A8 offsuit or whatever.

Turn
Gin card obviously. For the same reason I would not want to bluff this player, I would size up now, that I have the nuts. Ideally you want to get stacks in on the river, so you could even overbet to like 2$ and then also overbet jam the river. But at a minimum bet something closer to 1$ rather than just half pot.

River
Now he lead again, so definitely a "fun" player. Its difficult to say, what on earth he can have, but here I think, you just have to go for the gold and jam. If he is bluffing, he is not calling any raise, and if he has something like a rivered two pair, he is not folding, just because you jam for around 7$ rather than leave him this 2$ behind.

Results
Your line was fine, but not getting those last 2$ of his stack is a significant mistake. We dont make the nuts very often, so when we do, we need to maximize value especially against bad players AKA "fish".

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Maybe you could go a bit larger, since there is 27c in dead money as opposed to 25c in a standard 10c/5c game.

Should be 17c vs. 15c of course.

 

[Aballinamion]

Hero is mid-position, villain is BB, no relevant history. Villain has the effective stack of $8ish.

Hero has QsTs.

We can fold these suited combos from time to time as well. We open these combos from MP when the table is very easy, which means there are players ahead that we can overplay postflop, they will fold too much, they won't put a 3-bet very often.

Flop JcAd4h, Pot size $0.60

Villain donk bets $0.30, Hero calls (maybe should have raised here)

What range of hands villain is leading here?
Why maybe we should've raised this spot? We only have a gutshot, if we hit a ten or a queen on the turn we are not sure if is that good, no flush draws, so what is the point of raising this donk bet here?

 

[puzzlefish]

I dont see any reason to raise though. He is likely not leading out with total nothing, and I dont want to start a big bluff against a bad player. This is usually a recipe for setting money on fire and tilt yourself, when he call you down with his A8 offsuit or whatever.

What range of hands villain is leading here?
Why maybe we should've raised this spot? We only have a gutshot, if we hit a ten or a queen on the turn we are not sure if is that good, no flush draws, so what is the point of raising this donk bet here?

The reason why I was thinking of raising is based on what I have learned in the past, that we generally want to raise when we just have a draw and no real showdown value, since we can still rely on fold equity to win the hand right there and, if we get called and hit our draw, then our hand is well disguised.

The reason why I didn't raise was exactly because I thought this player might end up being a calling station and my draw wasn't necessarily going to be the best hand by the river, even if I did hit the gin card.

 

[fundiver199]

The reason why I was thinking of raising is based on what I have learned in the past, that we generally want to raise when we just have a draw and no real showdown value, since we can still rely on fold equity to win the hand right there and, if we get called and hit our draw, then our hand is well disguised.

That is true, but we are raising draws more often, when we are out of position. In position we lean more toward a float play, where we just call the flop bet and then consider betting, if they check to us on the turn. Ace high boards are also not raised that much in general, because they tend to be pretty static. If you had something very strong like AJ or 44 here, there would also not be much reason to raise, since there are very few turn cards, that can kill your action.

Finally we prefer to raise draws, when we have fold equity and/or a strong draw. And here I dont think, any of those conditions are met. I think, Villain is leading a lot of AX, and I dont think, they are folding it, at least not on the flop. And of course you only have 4 outs, so its a pretty bad draw, which for instance cant call a 3-bet on the flop. And for all those reasons I would definitely also just call here.

 

[puzzlefish]

That is true, but we are raising draws more often, when we are out of position. In position we lean more toward a float play, where we just call the flop bet and then consider betting, if they check to us on the turn. Ace high boards are also not raised that much in general, because they tend to be pretty static. If you had something very strong like AJ or 44 here, there would also not be much reason to raise, since there are very few turn cards, that can kill your action.

Finally we prefer to raise draws, when we have fold equity and/or a strong draw. And here I dont think, any of those conditions are met. I think, Villain is leading a lot of AX, and I dont think, they are folding it, at least not on the flop. And of course you only have 4 outs, so its a pretty bad draw, which for instance cant call a 3-bet on the flop. And for all those reasons I would definitely also just call here.

These are the nuances of the game that I am still working on applying at the tables.

Villain had QQ this time.

 

[ScooperNova]

I would say a raise or a fold would have both been better on the flop. You have a gutshot, so just calling here is usually setting up a bluff later or a dead money call. I don't think we should be setting up a bluff on a later street against a player we don't know much about, other than they just made a donk bet. A raise, setting up an aggressive turn is risky. Obviously, we're glad you didn't fold because the turn brings a miracle. I would have bet at least 2/3 -3/4 pot here. That set's us up to get the villain all in on the river for max EV.

Summary: TBH folding the flop may have been the optimal play, but I'm sure glad we were feeling it . I favor the raise over the call and/or bigger bet sizing and turn on the river to get the big payoff.

 

[fundiver199]

These are the nuances of the game that I am still working on applying at the tables.

That is exactly, what the hand analysis section is for

Villain had QQ this time.

That is obviously pretty crazy, but it also proves two of my points. The first being, that you did not have enough fold equity to raise the flop. And the second being, that this was a bad player. Or perhaps on some kind of massive tilt, since he essentially stacked off with QQ, even when there was an A and a K on the board.