$10 NL HE Full Ring: Twilight zone in WPTG Pace 10NL

[puzzlefish]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.05/$.10

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

8-max fast fold 0.02/0.05/0.10
Are my bet sizes still too small?

Hero is on the Straddle/UTG with $14.50 and

...pre-flop...

MP raises to $0.24
MP+1 calls
HJ with $5 calls
CO with $19.45 calls
Folds to Hero....???

Spoiler

Hero raises to $1.1

HJ calls
CO calls

...flop...

Some bricks..



Pot is $3.95

Hero bets $2.2
They come along.

...turn...

Bricks getting more coordinated..



Pot is $10.55

Hero bets $5
HJ coughs in the remainder of their stack
CO calls

...river...

Spoiler

CO fast folds
HJ shows

 

[Poker Orifice]

the 3Bet size pre that you chose would be the sizing you'd want to use if you were OOP vs. 1 player, but here it is vs. the open-raiser + 3 callers. I'd probably raise to 18bb (if it were facing 2 players while OOP I'm probably going to 14bb)

 

[300HPGOD]

Pre: Always nice to get a premium hand when we are in the straddle (Im assuming its a forced straddle as straddling UTG is not good to do if you have a choice). I would raise bigger here but not a big difference than what you did but probably more in the neighborhood of $1.35 depending on villains and also how people have been playing when they are the straddle. We get callers which is what we want although Queens are vulnerable so its a little double edged sword but much rather get calls then folds,

Flop: Im not sure on this cause I play tournies and not cash so I may be off on this (Ill see what others say) but I think the sizing is on the cusp of being too big but at the same time it can be fine if you are against stations. I would probably go around half in game but thats not to say $2.20 is bad and maybe others will say its fine. Again, cash is not my forte as a disclaimer. We get two calls so I would discount a set a little and also I would think some flush draws could raise here but not always.

Turn: I think this sizing is about right, I would normally go lower but its a double suited board and we already got some calls on flop so this sizing seems fine to me. I would not check here with this board but with this bet we put more than half our stack in already. If the turn was a 7 non club I would bet less here but there are plenty of draws that can still call this.

River; You dont say what you do but its implied you jam since villain snap folds. This is the part of the hand I really disagree with. Im checking here... and I'm not checking here cause I am scared. In fact I dont think 108 or 58 just calls the turn on a double suited board when we are already half in, they would raise so I think we have the effective nuts here. I would check since I think 9x and those type hands are less likely to call and it makes my hand look like JJ or 1010. All the busted draws I would think would at least consider jamming here on us after we check. If we are going against a set somehow or two pair those arent checking behind so we can still get it in. We lose out a bit against some 1 pair hands at times but I am not sure how many of those call down 3 barrels after a 3 bet pre (after the straddle) anyway. So I would check here trying to let my opponent go for some big "move".

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
As mentioned by others, your 3-bet is to small, when there are field callers.

Flop
Pretty good flop for QQ. Even with your small 3-bet, I would not be to concerned, someone flopped two pair on this board. The SPR against HJ is only around 1, so I dont even really worry about him. If he has a piece of the board, his chips are likely going in, and I am certainly never folding to him. The more important player is CO, since he cover you, and against him the SPR is a little under 4. Which is just about shallow enough, that I am also willing to stack off against him right now.

So with that in mind you want to think about, if you want to make it a 2-street or 3-street hand. And I think, you are deep enough, that a 3-street hand is probably the best choise. It is worth noting here, that you holding Q of spades makes it a bit less likely, he flopped a flushdraw, or that a spade comes on the turn. And to make it a 3-street hand, your bet probably need to be a bit smaller, which is also, what we are generally supposed to do in multiway pots or 3-bet pots.

Turn
Actually several straights got there now (T8, 85, 53), and hands like 97s and 77 also improved, so its not the cleanest card in the world. You only have $12 left behind, which is a little over a pot sized bet, so making any further bet kind of commits you to the pot. And for that reason I actually think, I might slow down and check this card to see, what happen behind me. And if I bet I go smaller to distribute the remaining bets more evenly between turn and river.

River
As played I think, there is a good chance, two pair or better would have jammed the turn with the dubble flushdraw board. So I feel pretty good about you having at least CO beat. His range is probably mostly made up of worse one pair hands and busted flushdraws, so the question is, do we want to jam or check to induce? And for me the answer is jam. With HJ being all-in, the main pot is protected, and you only have $7 left behind with a total pot of $22,5. This is not a good spot for him to bluff, so I think, he is just checking back and giving up with busted draws. And I also think, he might check back worse 1-pair hands, because he think, the pot is big enough already, and there is no value in betting them.

Spoiler
Since he fast-folded getting 4:1, he most likely had a busted flushdraw.

 

[puzzlefish]

You dont say what you do but its implied you jam

CO fast folded once the river card showed up, so I did not get to bet. The site detected the fast fold and just proceeded to show HJ's hand.

That said I am not sure if I would jam or not. Seems silly to try a thin value bet with so little left vs. pot.

 

[puzzlefish]

the 3Bet size pre that you chose would be the sizing you'd want to use if you were OOP vs. 1 player, but here it is vs. the open-raiser + 3 callers.

I would raise bigger here but not a big difference than what you did but probably more in the neighborhood of $1.35 depending on villains and also how people have been playing when they are the straddle

As mentioned by others, your 3-bet is to small, when there are field callers.

How do you decide the size of the 3-bet vs. your and the initial raiser position, the initial raise size and the number of players that called behind? This sounds like there should be an easy way to remember what to do roughly, but I run into a mental block thinking if I raise bigger I will just be filtering for KK and AA to 4-bet me instead, which has happened to me quite a bit.

 

[fundiver199]

How do you decide the size of the 3-bet vs. your and the initial raiser position, the initial raise size and the number of players that called behind? This sounds like there should be an easy way to remember what to do roughly, but I run into a mental block thinking if I raise bigger I will just be filtering for KK and AA to 4-bet me instead, which has happened to me quite a bit.

With deep stacks as in most cash games you can use 3 x in position and 4 x out of position, and then you add the field callers. So here the standard size would be 7X or 7 x $0,24 = $1,68. And because of all that dead money from 4 callers, you would probably have to be willing to stack off against any 4-bet. And yes it sucks, if MP wakes up with AA or KK. But the alternative is to just call and then play QQ 5-ways out of position, which is also far from ideal.

 

[puzzlefish]

With deep stacks as in most cash games you can use 3 x in position and 4 x out of position, and then you add the field callers. So here the standard size would be 7X or 7 x $0,24 = $1,68.

Given that there were four callers before me, would it not be 8x? Or am I misreading that and by position you mean whether hero is last to act or not?

 

[Aballinamion]

Hero raises to $1.1

HJ calls
CO calls

You preflop sizing is okay. We expected multiple folds but two playing got in, not so good, time to reavaluate our hand strength and what are we going to do on most of bad flops that are about to come.

..flop...

Some bricks..



Pot is $3.95

The pot size is big and this is not a good flop.

Hero bets $2.2
They come along.

From now on we are commited playing against two other guys. On the flip side we still might bet for value and protection but a smaller sizing would do the work as well.

...turn...

Bricks getting more coordinated..



Pot is $10.55

On this situation either we jam or we fold.

 

[fundiver199]

Given that there were four callers before me, would it not be 8x? Or am I misreading that and by position you mean whether hero is last to act or not?

Your original post only mentioned 3 callers: MP+1, HJ and CO. I did write "4 callers" in my answer, but that was a mistake

MP raises to $0.24
MP+1 calls
HJ with $5 calls
CO with $19.45 calls
Folds to Hero....???

 

[puzzlefish]

Your original post only mentioned 3 callers: MP+1, HJ and CO. I did write "4 callers" in my answer, but that was a mistake

MP raises though so that make it 4 players involved before it comes to hero.

 

[puzzlefish]

The pot size is big and this is not a good flop.

From now on we are commited playing against two other guys. On the flip side we still might bet for value and protection but a smaller sizing would do the work as well.

What kind of smaller sizing would you go with that isn't giving flush draws and backdoor flush draws with hands like AKs a great price to call? I'd much rather pressure them into paying me off a lot more for sticking in the hand.

On this situation either we jam or we fold.

This is interesting, because I had this same thought. But I can't fold as the first to act and it's really not that bad for there to now be two flush draws. Yes, some awkward hands made straights here but they should not be playing from the pre-flop. Jamming would maybe fold out some weak flushes but I think AKs, AQs, etc. aren't going to get away and any other made sets will be happy to get it in.

 

[puzzlefish]

Your original post only mentioned 3 callers: MP+1, HJ and CO. I did write "4 callers" in my answer, but that was a mistake

MP raises though so that make it 4 players involved before it comes to hero.

I think I understand now - the initial 3x or 4x 3bet/raise concerns the initial raiser, then the additional 1x is per each additional caller.