$10 NL HE 6-max: Bad luck or stupidity?

blueskies

blueskies

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I forgot to note villain's vpip af stats before I left, but from experiemce playing with him, he is not very good.

First hand at table I get QsJc on bb. Everyone folds to sb, who limps.

I raise to 27c he calls.

6c7cTc flop. I have been running into buzzsaws a lot lately so the familiar monotone flop goes check check. I didnt wanna cbet.

Turn is 9d. He checks again and I check.

River is 8s, which makes a ten high straight on the board but i have qj and just as I was feeling happy he shoves!

He has me coverd so he is betting effectively $9.73 into a 54c pot wtf? I thought about folding for a second cuz of the flush possibility. This guy just might be one of those guys who super slow plays a monster. Ultimately I closed my eyes and called. Even if he has a J, I will win since I have the highest possible straight.

Would you call or fold?

Ac5c. He did super slow play and the worst turn and river for me did come.
 
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Ace of Spad3s

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So yeah, why do you risk 9.73 for a 54c pot on the river without the nuts?

Looks like villain jams hoping you have a J and you make the call. With the flush on the board, that's a quick fold. What is he representing other than a A high flush or the straight flush?
 
Poker Orifice

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Which site? Are you still playing now?
 
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gustav197poker

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There is no need to raise this pot. Play check with your position or b/f otf or b/f ott for this texture.
Greetings.
 
pentazepam

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Instafold.

If you see him do similar moves with a weaker hand you just have to call and win like 5% of the time to break even if he over-bets 20x the pot. So you can certainly wait for much better spots.

And if he only does it with the nuts or close to it you obviously don't have to call him at all unless you have the nuts yourself.

In general, if it's not a misclick or a total maniac on tilt it is the nuts - just like people who open shoves PF 100bb or deeper almost always have AA.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
SB limping is kind of unusual in cash games without antes, and depending on reads you can either raise or take a free flop.

Flop
I dont think, Q high has enough showdown value to check back here, and with Jc you are only drawing dead to a flopped K high flush or better. So I prefer C-betting here. If you get him to fold a hand like A5 with no club, thats a tremendous outcome.

Turn
Now there is a 1-liner to a straight, and unless he has a flush, you picked up some more outs to a gutshot. As played I would put out a delayed C-bet and try to take it down now.

River
Betting 20 times the pot is of course pretty bizarre. But without having looked at the results, I agree with those, who say, that this is a fold. If he is bluffing, he is risking a whole stack to pick up a very small pot, and if thats his thing, then good for him. Of course reads matter, and if you have seen him do something similar multible times, ok then I probably call. However the fact, he checked flop and turn, is not a good enough reason for me to call. On the flop he naturally checked to you, and on the turn he might have been hoping to get a check-raise in. So this is not the same as, if he was in position and checked back twice.

Results
So he had it. Not exactly a big surprice.
 
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This is a clear fold as villain (almost) always has a flush with that line.

In general, if it's not a misclick or a total maniac on tilt it is the nuts - just like people who open shoves PF 100bb or deeper almost always have AA.

Not sure I agree with that though, plenty of fish start shoving every half decent hand when they get bored, tilted etc. When I see an open shove I am always wondering how light I should call as I know its rarely AA
 
pentazepam

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This is a clear fold as villain (almost) always has a flush with that line.



Not sure I agree with that though, plenty of fish start shoving every half decent hand when they get bored, tilted etc. When I see an open shove I am always wondering how light I should call as I know its rarely AA
Ok. Open-shove was the wrong term. I meant shove over several players who have entered the pot so it becomes a re-raise all-in. Some weak-passive players know that they have such a small super strong almost non-existent 3-bet range, not to speak of 4-bet range, so they rather take the money in the pot preflop than play post-flop because almost everyone knows what they have.

What level and site do you see plenty of fish open-shoving in cash games? If it's above 25NL I might check it out.
 
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Ok. Open-shove was the wrong term. I meant shove over several players who have entered the pot so it becomes a re-raise all-in. Some weak-passive players know that they have such a small super strong almost non-existent 3-bet range, not to speak of 4-bet range, so they rather take the money in the pot preflop than play post-flop because almost everyone knows what they have.

What level and site do you see plenty of fish open-shoving in cash games? If it's above 25NL I might check it out.

This is on all sites, it's not all the time but it's not a rare occurrence. Often when they are down to 20-30bb or so, but sometimes with 100+. The higher up in stakes you go the less this happens, I still see it at 25NL sometimes, though alot more often at 10NL
 
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fundiver199

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This is on all sites, it's not all the time but it's not a rare occurrence. Often when they are down to 20-30bb or so, but sometimes with 100+. The higher up in stakes you go the less this happens, I still see it at 25NL sometimes, though alot more often at 10NL
There is a pretty big difference between people open shoving for 100BB or 20-30BB. In the latter case the risk/reward is obviously better. And just as importantly they obviously lost some of their chips, since the minimum buyin on most sites is 40-50BB these days. And they did not top up, which mean, they are probably on the fish side of the spectrum. So the 20-30BB open jam is almost always some variation of "fish on tilt". They are trying to get back into the game with a fast dubble, or go bust and be done with it.

The 100BB open shove is more indicative of someone, who simply dont care about the money and just want to have some fun and tilt other players. And thats definitely most common in the micros and especially 2NL. Blackrain79 used to call them "free money guys", because they are literally giving their money away. I agree with your original statement, that this is almost never AA, because with that hand most people would want to get more action. More commonly its some sort of middling pair like 88 or maybe AK. Or occationally something totally random.
 
Aballinamion

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I forgot to note villain's vpip af stats before I left, but from experiemce playing with him, he is not very good.

First hand at table I get QsJc on bb. Everyone folds to sb, who limps.

I raise to 27c he calls.

6c7cTc flop. I have been running into buzzsaws a lot lately so the familiar monotone flop goes check check. I didnt wanna cbet.

Turn is 9d. He checks again and I check.

River is 8s, which makes a ten high straight on the board but i have qj and just as I was feeling happy he shoves!

He has me coverd so he is betting effectively $9.73 into a 54c pot wtf? I thought about folding for a second cuz of the flush possibility. This guy just might be one of those guys who super slow plays a monster. Ultimately I closed my eyes and called. Even if he has a J, I will win since I have the highest possible straight.

Would you call or fold?

Ac5c. He did super slow play and the worst turn and river for me did come.
You felt into his trap, the weird bet OTR had made you think that it was bluffing, otherwise why this limp preflop and check-check til river? I like to do this move from time to time or any other move that brings chaos and confusion into my opponent and will probably lead it to make a huge mistake:
For example, to bet 1-2 BB OTR into a massive pot having the nuts.
You should’ve noted that after you raised preflop many players won’t call with aunt Jackie and grandma Karen: they will have some decent hands.
Put yourself into villain’s shoes: if you had flopped the nuts would you try to bet/bluff your flush or would you rather check and wait for villain to complete some equity or bet for information?
 
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