$10 NL; 2 bottom pair from the SB

NineLions

NineLions

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Tenbob had a thread about a bad feeling in one of his hands. I played this hand largely on instinct, neglecting to consider PA stats as it caught be a bit by surprise.

I'm not sure where/how my instincts came from, as I was multitabling and wasn't really paying close attention to the villain. Afterwards I was wondering how far out of line my instincts were.



pokerstars Game #9820553439: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/05/09 - 00:55:19 (ET)
Table 'Imperatrix' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: DERUY ($9.75 in chips)
Seat 2: stewpac5577 ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 3: Runtimmy ($11.95 in chips)
Seat 4: celiokameo ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 5: pogiedong ($2.35 in chips)
Seat 6: SuavE40 ($9.15 in chips)
Seat 7: mshdbngr ($1.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Ninelions ($11.25 in chips)
Seat 9: m.i.l.f_81 ($5.50 in chips)
Ninelions: posts small blind $0.05
m.i.l.f_81: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ninelions [4d Kh]
DERUY: folds
stewpac5577: folds
Runtimmy: folds
celiokameo: calls $0.10
pogiedong: folds
SuavE40: folds
mshdbngr: folds
Ninelions: calls $0.05 SB is one of my biggest net positive positions, even before removing the cost of the blinds. I'm VP$IP 60+ from the SB in cash games but ahead of the middle positions in net $
m.i.l.f_81: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c Ac Kd]
Ninelions: bets $0.20 Pot is .30, hoping to get paired Ace or K to call while admittedly risking flush draws.
m.i.l.f_81: calls $0.20
celiokameo: raises $0.70 to $0.90 This surprised me; I'm not sure why he's so keen to win this small pot
Ninelions:


Pretty straightforward so far?
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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he could be squeezing you. I'd guess with a simple MP call he doesn't have KK, AA, or AK. Since you have K4, really hard to put him on 44. I think you're way ahead of his range. Your bet was kind of probe-like, too. I'd just put him on an ace. Smooth call or re-raise.
 
A

alan1983

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re-raise and see what happens.

A bet such as yours by the small blind on an AK board is gonna get reraised by anything. Id raise it with air here.

So it doesnt give you any information. he could very much have A4 here or a lone ace

Re-raise to 2. consider folding if he shoves or comes back over.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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A bet such as yours by the small blind on an AK board is gonna get reraised by anything. Id raise it with air here.

I find this interesting, alan.

Not with 2 pair/set hands, but generally when the pot so small, I'm inclined to let anyone who bets at it take it. To put up any fight over a small pot I'd need at least TPTK. Anything less and I don't want to get involved, unless I read the opponent as over aggressive or a calling station that I can take chips from with less than TPTK.

Otherwise, if someone has already taken a stab at a small pot I just let it go.
 
J

joeeagles

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Interesting hand. His preflop play tends to exclude he has something like AK, 44 and A4 is also a longshot. I don't see how you can be behind here, and his pot size raise seems to exclude the flush draw (raise is too big), but it's still possible because players at this level try to build up the pot.

If this weren't $10 max it would be a great spot to get tricky and slowplay it, simply calling his raise here and then check/shoving the turn. But since we can't exclude the flush draw he might check the turn too and that would hurt us.

So you have to raise here, the $2.00 suggested by Alan sounds good and if he shoves back I would call this as the chances of him being ahead are very slim right now.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Interesting hand. His preflop play tends to exclude he has something like AK, 44 and A4 is also a longshot. I don't see how you can be behind here, and his pot size raise seems to exclude the flush draw (raise is too big), but it's still possible because players at this level try to build up the pot.

I agree. I have seen people at these tables slowplay AK, but rarely, and usually the slowplay comes from early position or the blinds. And 44 seemed unlikely since, as mentioned, I know where 2 of the 4s are. A4 is a longshot, but then so is K4, although again I know where 2 of the 4s are.


I'll post the next bit after this thread has had 24hrs to age.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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PokerStars Game #9820553439: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/05/09 - 00:55:19 (ET)
Table 'Imperatrix' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: DERUY ($9.75 in chips)
Seat 2: stewpac5577 ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 3: Runtimmy ($11.95 in chips)
Seat 4: celiokameo ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 5: pogiedong ($2.35 in chips)
Seat 6: SuavE40 ($9.15 in chips)
Seat 7: mshdbngr ($1.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Ninelions ($11.25 in chips)
Seat 9: m.i.l.f_81 ($5.50 in chips)
Ninelions: posts small blind $0.05
m.i.l.f_81: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ninelions [4d Kh]
DERUY: folds
stewpac5577: folds
Runtimmy: folds
celiokameo: calls $0.10
pogiedong: folds
SuavE40: folds
mshdbngr: folds
Ninelions: calls $0.05
m.i.l.f_81: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c Ac Kd]
Ninelions: bets $0.20
m.i.l.f_81: calls $0.20
celiokameo: raises $0.70 to $0.90

I was going to raise him here, but 1) it was a high speed table, and 2) my daughter had climbed onto my lap to say goodnight. As a result, the quickest thing I could do was just call.

Ninelions: calls $0.70
m.i.l.f_81: folds
*** TURN *** [4c Ac Kd] [Th]
Ninelions: checks

I had let him have control of the betting by just calling the flop, and was a little concerned he might have JQ or AT, so I wanted to see what he led with as a bet. I didn't really think JQ likely since he raised the flop rather than calling, and at this level people love AT preflop and like to raise preflop with it.

celiokameo: bets $4 Instabet.

To me this said that he has the same hand as he did on the flop, and he still either thinks he has the best hand or wants me to go away.


Ninelions: raises $6.25 to $10.25 and is all-in

At this point there are lots of hands I'm behind, but I'm more than 50% sure he's a donk overvaluing an Ace. Why? I'm not sure.

I give him a chance to fold, but he's getting pretty good pot odds to call, and I'm sensing a lot of aggression so I don't think he's giving up.


celiokameo: calls $5.75 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [4c Ac Kd Th] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ninelions: shows [4d Kh] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
celiokameo: mucks hand
Ninelions collected $20.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $21.80 | Rake $1.05
Board [4c Ac Kd Th 7s]
Seat 1: DERUY folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: stewpac5577 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Runtimmy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: celiokameo mucked [Ah 8s] Yup. What a waste.
Seat 5: pogiedong folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: SuavE40 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: mshdbngr (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Ninelions (small blind) showed [4d Kh] and won ($20.75) with two pair, Kings and Fours
Seat 9: m.i.l.f_81 (big blind) folded on the Flop



I'm curious about a couple of things. One, does his betting suggest his holding to the rest of you as well? I'm just wondering where my instinct comes from on this hand.

And also, disreguarding instinct and the missed re-raise on the flop, does the rest of the play seem reasonable?
 
joosebuck

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all i can say is that bottom 2 is a deceptively bad hand to have. at best vs tptk you are what, 5:3?
 
J

joeeagles

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His betting suggests something much stronger than his holding, first his pot size raise on the flop, but mostly on the turn ($4.00 into a $2.50 pot). I can't believe how he overbet this pot with A8. $10 max is just a different world.

Joose, you're actually better than a 4 to 1 favored with bottom 2 pair against TPTK from turn to river (1 card to come, TPTK has 8 outs, unless he also has 4 outs to an inside straight).

But with that bet, what range do we put him on? Did he just make a better 2 pair? Or he wants us to go away as suggested by NL? It's kind of hard withouts reads.

I actually like the flop call and check/shove the turn with 2 pair, trying to pot commit him, although its dangerous. In this case it required, given his overbet on the turn, some extra guts.

Good job NL.
 
Schatzdog

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Doyle Brunson's biggest losing hand is bottom two.

I think the pre-flop limp against two opponents OOP keeps you in the dark about where you are at in the hand.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Yeah, if a T or A comes on the river, I'm dead.

I really expected to take it on the flop uncontested, or, on the turn with a more substantial bet, barring an unfavorable turn card. I started off playing for a small pot but it got out of hand.

Like I said, I played this one mostly on gut feel, though I can't explain where that feel might have originated from. And part of the reason for posting the hand was to see how far off I veered from what, under normal circumstances, I should have done.
 
Stefanicov

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welcome to the dark side nine tis scary but good:D
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Sends a shiver down my spine, Stefan.


:)
 
A

alan1983

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Ninelions i do believe any ace would raise the flop like 99% of time against sb, so flop isnt surprising.

He did bet it a bit too strong later on, but we were probably giving him 2 much credit. hes likely the "omg i have a pair of aces" type.

That said, i dont like just calling the raise.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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PF limp getting 5-1 is obv fine, if we think there's a large probability of him either bluffing or having a second-best hand with few outs then it's in our interests to call the flop raise rather than reraise and let him either continue to bluff or continue to overvalue his hand on the turn. I can't fold to the fishy instaoverbet on the turn, and calling obv commits us so we shove.

Mind you, bottom two pair is vulnerable, and the likelihood is that if villain does have some sort of second best hand on the flop, he has a significant number of outs to beat you - and against his range these outs won't necessarily be obvious (as in he could have XcXc, Ax, JcTc), so most turn cards will be different degrees of scary to you. So calling the flop is a little iffy, but if we think he's doing this as a bluff or with Ax often enough then we can call.

Really, I think the hand is fine.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Ninelions i do believe any ace would raise the flop like 99% of time against sb, so flop isnt surprising.

He did bet it a bit too strong later on, but we were probably giving him 2 much credit. hes likely the "omg i have a pair of aces" type.

That said, i dont like just calling the raise.

Again you seem to be more aggressive than I, alan. In his position I would raise the flop with a decent kicker, which in this case since he didn't raise preflop might limit it to AT-A9, but not with any Ace like he had. Mind you, in theory he could have been thinking the same thing; since I didn't raise preflop I couldn't have that great a kicker if I paired the Ace either, although given the rest of his play I think that's beyond his thinking. :)

I'm on a bit of a "lead the betting after hitting the flop with a limped pot or throw it away" pattern, so I'm sure I give up some small pots when I hit the flop with mediocre holdings and someone else leads with a slightly weaker hand (unless I have some draws as well), but it also keeps me out of trouble when I've limped with connectors or something.


And, I was going to re-raise on the flop, but life interfered with poker at that moment so I went with the easier-button-to-find option of calling. Dorkus doesn't find it so objectionable, but it did make the turn a little more difficult.
 
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