Unsure of how to play JJ in this spot.

This hand happened with 18 players left. There was a pay jump at 17 worth a little over a buy in but I'm not sure if that's really important given the starting strength of JJ. I'm interested in the lines you would take preflop. I think limping was a really bad play on my part. I think I got caught mentally between trying to make the pay jump or playing my Jacks properly. Either way I don't really know what the best line would be here. I think it might have been a hand I should have open shoved but I'd like to hear your thoughts


PokerStars - 2800/5600 Ante 700 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 41.17 BB
BTN: 27.47 BB
SB: 48.48 BB
BB: 20.39 BB
UTG: 12.05 BB
UTG+1: 22.3 BB
MP: 37.56 BB
Hero (MP+1): 5.4 BB
MP+2: 5.97 BB

9 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.62 BB) Hero has J♦ J♠

fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 1 BB, MP+2 calls 1 BB, fold, fold, SB raises to 3.3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 5.28 BB and is all-in, fold, SB calls 1.98 BB

Flop: (13.68 BB, 2 players) K♥ A♣ Q♠

Turn: (13.68 BB, 2 players) Q♥

River: (13.68 BB, 2 players) 3♠

SB shows 9♣ A♠ (Two Pair, Aces and Queens)
(Pre 28%, Flop 75%, Turn 86%)
Hero shows J♦ J♠ (Two Pair, Queens and Jacks)
(Pre 72%, Flop 25%, Turn 14%)
SB wins 13.68 BB


I ended up getting my money in good so I can't be too upset I got sucked out on I'm just wondering what the best line would have been for the hand as I'm really not happy with the way I played it.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing your responses!

I'm sorry I posted this is the wrong forum, It should be in Tournament Hand Analysis :s

quasi-limp..

At the late stages, shoving is one way to go, but JJ is always risky. One move would to be to make a decent sized bet, pre-flop, more than a limp, to see how many you could push out. Then, proceed post-flop, given you only have JJ. Since everything came up an over-card, that's a tough judgement call; hoping you will get another J, connecting cards.

JJ, like other pairs is tough to fold, but a lot of times it is a superior move.

My only decision there with 5.4BB would be, do I want to fold and try to make next pay jump or play? If I wanted to play then the only play I would make with 5.4BB is shove pre-flop. The fact that the SB was willing to raise after your limp with 5.4BB tells me that they would have called your open shove anyway, so pretty much you were doomed in this hand no matter what you did other than folding pre-flop. But if the situation presents itself again open shove.

We got 5 bbs ! We should be looking to jam a lot of hands ! JJ is def a shove here. The results likely don't change but we def should be shoving pre flop

yeah this is a shove all day every day. 5bb and an unopened pot from MP1 with JJ is like a dream come true

lol what? you limped 5 blinds? i have no answers for you

I looked into why JJ is such a problem hand once and I think it's about over cards. In big hands you're likely going to run into 2 overs which cuts your edge to just over 50%. With QQ, the risk of 2 overs is cut in half and KK can't be against two overs.

I've begun to look at JJ as a great hand for post-flop play. You can splash around preflop, but it's real power comes from friendly flops.

Well yes,
Everybody has told you, with 5 blinds you can not expect
How only one has paid ..

My opinion

It depends on previous flops and if your do for trips with jacks. If the previous flops have had jacks chances are you won't hit a jack. You calculate with are you do for trips. A pair of jacks win about forty percent of the time. You want to be do for trips witch hit a third of the time you get jacks. Nine players. Eighteen cards pre flop each card dealt roughly twice one in thirteen right. But you have two. Now the other five cards. One in thirteen per card five chances five and thirteen you hit trips. Or about a third.

Always a shove with just over 5 BB

I mean, the chips were gonna go all in pre flop anyway, and it did end up going in the middle but the method or steps in which this was done was very messy.
It's better you who should shove and put your opponents to the decision than be faced with tough decisions yourself.
Meaning, your decision preflop to limp initially could have compounded and put you in situations where you would be forced to make tough decisions. Someone could have limped along preflop when your originally limped and if the board came KQ8 rainbow, you would be in a situation where you have to figure out whether you wanna cbet or not with your now mid pair jacks.
Those are spots you don't want to encounter or put yourself in.

Just to be clear, with 5BB you should be open shoving ANY pocket pair, not just JJ+. You should also be shoving any suited A, any two face cards, and the better suited connectors. At minimum. The later you are in position the wider your shoving range gets.

Fold if you think the best you are going to do is make the next level in the next four hands before you are in the blinds. Realistically you have about 10 hands max to survive unless you get lucky.

If you shove you know probably the CO or SB is going to call anyways just based on stack size risk regardless of their cards

It's absolutely a shove. You have ~2 M with that ante. If you're that desperate for the pay jump, the only other play would be to fold, and even then with the remaining field and you being the short stack, it's unlikely you would be able to wait it out regardless. The profitable play in the long run is 100% to shove.

The call was definitely the worst of your options. You need to decide to either shove or fold. Based upon the stacks, I'd lean towards the shove. You have the 2nd shortest stack at the the table, so getting to the 17th spot is no guarantee even if you fold this hand. You also have 4 big stacks acting after you, including the 2 biggest. At 5 BB, you are going to have to make your move soon. Whether you push now or wait a few hands, there is a good chance that one of those 4 stacks is going to call you. With JJ, you might as well shove now since it's the 4th strongest starting hand and you might not get anything better before the blinds come around. And, you definitely don't want to let the blinds pass you again.

I disagree with the folks recommending an automatic shove. At this stage in the tournament pay jumps and survival are the keys to your play. You didn't mention the size of the pay jump or if the other table had any stacks as small or smaller than yours. In your case the player at MP +2 folded and got an instant cash reward thanks to your exit. You were 4 hands away from having to post a blind and with a .13 bb ante you could easily have kept going for an entire orbit or more.

I have arrived at the money in 15th or 16th place out of 18 on more than a few occasions and have gone on to make the final table and get a decent payday. I did it by keeping survival at the top of my list of things to think about. I watched others crash and burn when they finally got a hand and gambled their entire stack.

Finally, I agree with those who say JJ isn't and easy hand to play. It's generally trouble. In your case I would have folded.

You should shove probably the villain call but with 5 BBs probably you dont find another time to do that. If you think about pay jump fold pre-flop is better. I think that you limp is the worst move.

I think that you should have instantly shoved with only 5bbs remaining it may have detered sb from calling with such weak kicker.

UncleConRon said:

It depends on previous flops and if your do for trips with jacks. If the previous flops have had jacks chances are you won't hit a jack. You calculate with are you do for trips. A pair of jacks win about forty percent of the time. You want to be do for trips witch hit a third of the time you get jacks. Nine players. Eighteen cards pre flop each card dealt roughly twice one in thirteen right. But you have two. Now the other five cards. One in thirteen per card five chances five and thirteen you hit trips. Or about a third.

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"If the previous flops had jacks chances are you won't hit a jack" What do you mean by this? The deck is shuffled after each hand.
Regards to OP, with 55 big blinds I'm looking for any opportunity to shove and JJ definitely qualifies.

gryphon3005 said:

I disagree with the folks recommending an automatic shove. At this stage in the tournament pay jumps and survival are the keys to your play. You didn't mention the size of the pay jump or if the other table had any stacks as small or smaller than yours. In your case the player at MP +2 folded and got an instant cash reward thanks to your exit. You were 4 hands away from having to post a blind and with a .13 bb ante you could easily have kept going for an entire orbit or more.

I have arrived at the money in 15th or 16th place out of 18 on more than a few occasions and have gone on to make the final table and get a decent payday. I did it by keeping survival at the top of my list of things to think about. I watched others crash and burn when they finally got a hand and gambled their entire stack.

Finally, I agree with those who say JJ isn't and easy hand to play. It's generally trouble. In your case I would have folded.

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Thanks Gryphon, I've read a few of your posts and I always appreciate your insight.


The pay jump was for about $0.65, not a huge amount but at my average buy in of $0.55 its still significant for my BR. And I think I was in 15th or 16th at the time depending on who had gone through the blinds most recently.

I had made a few tight folds leading up to this hand which I felt like I wasted after getting it all in with JJs with such a poor line. As you said I had a full orbit or more after I had paid the blind that was approaching and although I may not have gotten a better hand that certainly gives everyone time to knock themselves out to have me make the next pay jump regardless.

Ultimately I think I should have folded Jacks in this position.

As the saying goes, "They are only Jacks"

praevus said:

You should shove probably the villain call but with 5 BBs probably you dont find another time to do that. If you think about pay jump fold pre-flop is better. I think that you limp is the worst move.

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I agree, I think my limp was what made me feel obligated to shove to his raise, It was the lead up to the bad position I got myself into.

jadestem said:

Just to be clear, with 5BB you should be open shoving ANY pocket pair, not just JJ+. You should also be shoving any suited A, any two face cards, and the better suited connectors. At minimum. The later you are in position the wider your shoving range gets.

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I understand that and I think that's true in the middle to late stages of a tournament but given how small my stack size was compared to the chip leaders and that each pay jump represents an increasing multiplier on your pay out I think playing for survival is also a reasonable play. I would need to have doubled up several times to have made a final table but I would have been able to fold my way up a pay jump spot or two.

I think given how the pay jump came after the next knock out it would have been a good fold. There's nothing sexier than a sure thing, and folding my way to the pay jump was nearly a sure thing

I respect your opinion to stay alive in tournament, but only right play here is to jam with your 5bb. You came to the first check point, next one will be final table, and final one wining tournament. JJ is to strong to fold here. I don’t think that sb would call here with A9, because there is one player behind. Any pair 66+ here is show or face cards. You will not have any better hand

EarnDAStack said:

I understand that and I think that's true in the middle to late stages of a tournament but given how small my stack size was compared to the chip leaders and that each pay jump represents an increasing multiplier on your pay out I think playing for survival is also a reasonable play. I would need to have doubled up several times to have made a final table but I would have been able to fold my way up a pay jump spot or two.

I think given how the pay jump came after the next knock out it would have been a good fold. There's nothing sexier than a sure thing, and folding my way to the pay jump was nearly a sure thing

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Folding is definitely an option. Probably not one that I'm ever taking in that position, but still an option. What I meant though was that if you ARE going to put any chips in the pot here, then you should be putting all of them in here. Give yourself a chance to take down the blinds and antes. If your shove gets through you increase your stack by ~50%, and if you get called you have a really strong hand and a chance at doubling up.