Hole In My Fish Net

poker_bro · Jan 25, 2020

I have studied a lot of tournament theory, especially Jonathan Little's content - how to beat small stakes tournament. Increasing aggression have been the most profitable adjustment I have made.

These methods work against regulars, but when I play against bad players, whole concept collapse.

Two examples from yesterday.
Very bad fish raise, I 3bet with my TT´s, he made min-4bet (2x my 3bet). I know this guy raise with very bad cards, and he can have basically anything, impossible to hand read. The flop came, low cards, no possible flush draws, maybe some weak straight draws, can't remember clearly. I checked with my overcards to see what this guy do, he made the smallest possible donk bet, I was pretty sure he has AK, or maybe some kind of lower pair, connected suiter, not any kind of premium hand, so, by this bet sizing tell + he has short stack, I went all-in, because I didn't want to get him to improve on the later streets. He called and he showed a set of fours, I lost a big pot.

Second example.
Fish raises from the Button, I called from Small Bling with KQo (yeah, maybe mistake, I should 3bet) and the flop came, Queen, and two hearts Jack and some lower card, my King was a heart, that blocks possible flush draws. I made a bet, and fish from the Button reraised minimum (2x of my bet sizing), I called. The turn card was a six heart, possible flush draw completed, I checked to see what fish is going to do, he made a donkbet, smallest possible bet to a big pot, I called of course. River card, another six, opponent went all in. By those bet sizing tells I was sure he can't have a good hand, no logic, I thought he will have maybe Queen with a lower kicker, he won't make just 2x reraise with premium hand on the flop. I was sure this is some kind of stupid bluff, pair of sixes in the flush board will be the perfect spot to bluff. I was so wrong, I called and he showed Jacks, full house, and again I lost a big pot.

Here were two examples of how difficult it is to play against opponents who don't know how to play "right".

We can forget bet sizing tells, and hand reading, hmm, just directional.

Before I have got great results by nitty and passive play. The most important goal was to see a flop as cheaply as possible, and when I hit something good, I play very aggressively. That worked against bad players very well, but then I started to change my strategy and overall rate improved, but against bad players, I lost control

So, tell me how should I play against very bad players? Should I follow GTO strategy or what? Recommend me some topics to study, I think I should google "how to recognize bluff, fish psychology, the meaning of donk bets and how to beat bad players". What else?

Serjo600 · Jan 25, 2020

Perhaps you are the fish, and your arguments that you were given a raise on the turn were rejected and you did not believe based on previous draws, a creative player can play with any cards against a tight player, especially if he has a large stack. Still, if you think this opponent is a fish, the Golden rule in fish is never to bluff. because fish itself pays on all streets, if in something engulfed and never would throw away their super cards), against fish not bluff, the same villains and maniacs, but your donk in 2 blind on flop gives maniac reason to think that you not bluff, in a whole under every situation there is configuring unambiguous decisions not case, there is mass situations when and as play, need abide by dynamics, if you on FR table raise its VPIP and PFR until marginal values, then prepare for what even with better you might get run over. You also need to consider the position, stage of the tournament, the pot odds, opponent statistics, play discipline, SH or FR table, the speed if it's a tournament, rebuynik or knockout, you can't just definitely say that I have lost because my hand was better, the percentage of luck has not been canceled, and if the error is repeated again and again, then you need to disassemble the hand on the forum and discuss how to react in this situation and get the maximum profit.

brazilpescador · Jan 25, 2020

I believe that playing against players that are not regular the theory collapses because they don't have a rule or a tournament goal they just play and go off like hands they face points that are not allowed and you can eliminate an amount but then another ready to play in the same wild and reckless way that can and probably do you some harm

fundiver199 · Jan 25, 2020

I actually think, advanced poker theory meant for higher stakes can hurt your results, when you are playing online micro stakes games. Playing against bad players can be hard work, but it is also very profitable, and it mostly require patience and a feel based approach. The only part of poker theory, which I find useful against bad players, is the concept of MDF. This is because, you often can not put them on a range, and then the best option is to simply call enough of the time and of course with your best hands.

In the second hand you leveled yourself. You tried to read something into his bet sizes, where you should just have followed MDF. Which mean mostly calling, when the bet is very small, and mostly folding, when its very large. Or even more simple just look at, what you have, and how large a pot, you would normally play with that hand. In this case you had top pair on a very dangerous board, and that kind of hand is only good for a small or medium sized pot.

In the first hand it was probably ok to go broke against a maniac. But if his 4-bet range include hands as bad as 44, then why not 5-bet jam TT and be done? TT is not an easy hand to take postflop with a very low stack-to-pot ratio. 5-bet jamming will also send him a message, that he is not going to sit for the rest of the tournament and mini 3-bet or mini 4-bet you, whenever he feel like it. This kind of action is pretty annoying, so I like to shut it down, when I have a hand, that is strong enough to go with.

NCDaddy · Jan 25, 2020

Off topic. I read the title to this thread and thought, for a second, that you were referring to fish net stockings! Ha...dirty mind I have....

On topic: "bad" players aren't going to know what you know or think you know or play how you think they should play. They don't study, they don't know different theories, etc. They play based on feel and what they want to do at any given time. You can't go into a tournament and play every player the same way. Sometimes aggression works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes trappy play works. Sometimes it doesn't. The game is about adjustment to the player. The hardest part is when you think through a hand, when you're trying to put your opponent on a hand, to NOT think how YOU would play it but how THEY would play it based on what you know of them. Theories and strageties are great bases for playing. But sometimes they go out the window.

xrhstos · Jan 25, 2020

The first hand was a very standard situation where an ovepair gets stacked by a set.
If you were the one with the 44 would you call the guy with the TT a fish for stacking off?

The second hand was a very marginal spot where you turned your top pair into a bluff catcher.
I would recommend to avoid marginal spots where you mostly guess that you are ahead of your opponent.

Play solid poker but accept the fact that everyone has their own playstyle and way to play a hand.
It's dangerous for your game if you disregard all your loses and mistakes into your opponent being a fish, that way you will not improve since you already are the better player.

nuttea · Jan 25, 2020

poker_bro said:
I have studied a lot of tournament theory, especially Jonathan Little's content - how to beat small stakes tournament. Increasing aggression have been the most profitable adjustment I have made.

These methods work against regulars, but when I play against bad players, whole concept collapse.

Two examples from yesterday.
Very bad fish raise, I 3bet with my TT´s, he made min-4bet (2x my 3bet). I know this guy raise with very bad cards, and he can have basically anything, impossible to hand read. The flop came, low cards, no possible flush draws, maybe some weak straight draws, can't remember clearly. I checked with my overcards to see what this guy do, he made the smallest possible donk bet, I was pretty sure he has AK, or maybe some kind of lower pair, connected suiter, not any kind of premium hand, so, by this bet sizing tell + he has short stack, I went all-in, because I didn't want to get him to improve on the later streets. He called and he showed a set of fours, I lost a big pot.

Second example.
Fish raises from the Button, I called from Small Bling with KQo (yeah, maybe mistake, I should 3bet) and the flop came, Queen, and two hearts Jack and some lower card, my King was a heart, that blocks possible flush draws. I made a bet, and fish from the Button reraised minimum (2x of my bet sizing), I called. The turn card was a six heart, possible flush draw completed, I checked to see what fish is going to do, he made a donkbet, smallest possible bet to a big pot, I called of course. River card, another six, opponent went all in. By those bet sizing tells I was sure he can't have a good hand, no logic, I thought he will have maybe Queen with a lower kicker, he won't make just 2x reraise with premium hand on the flop. I was sure this is some kind of stupid bluff, pair of sixes in the flush board will be the perfect spot to bluff. I was so wrong, I called and he showed Jacks, full house, and again I lost a big pot.

Here were two examples of how difficult it is to play against opponents who don't know how to play "right".

We can forget bet sizing tells, and hand reading, hmm, just directional.

Before I have got great results by nitty and passive play. The most important goal was to see a flop as cheaply as possible, and when I hit something good, I play very aggressively. That worked against bad players very well, but then I started to change my strategy and overall rate improved, but against bad players, I lost control

So, tell me how should I play against very bad players? Should I follow GTO strategy or what? Recommend me some topics to study, I think I should google "how to recognize bluff, fish psychology, the meaning of donk bets and how to beat bad players". What else?

getting mad at them makes no sense. We already know that they will coincide with us. So why get annoyed when they do this? Be honest with yourself. The only reason you get annoyed is that you: a) don’t get into anything at all, b) they often get firewood. It is important to remember that both of these conditions are the norm.So, from a technical point of view, what is the most profitable strategy game against fish that doesn't fold anything? Clearly bluffing will be one of the worst strategies. We already know that these players play poker because they like to open bluffs. Trying to bluff at such players is like sculpting a ball into their own goal.The correct and most profitable strategy game against fish, which does not fold, is a banal value bet. It’s important to determine what we mean by value betting. The problem is that this concept is relative. For a value bet, a turn or river against most nit, for example, you need a very strong hand. Such players rarely reach these streets with something weak. Basically there will be a top pair, a nut draw and better.Now back to our chips. We already know that they can call us with any two. Therefore, we can significantly expand our range of value-betting. Any strong hand, starting with the top pair, is a must-have bet on all streets. Even an average pair can often be added to the value bet range against an answering machine without a fold button. There are situations where we can get subtle value with hands such as the bottom pair or ace-high.
I would also recommend a book - Crushing the Microstakes !

Finally, pay attention to cases where they manage to find the raise button, especially in the later streets. Usually we tend to disregard the actions of the fish as a whole. But the fact remains, sometimes they will get flashes and straights, and sometimes the second pair. The fish gets strong hands as often as we do, just such players are so passive that we rarely manage to determine the strength of their hands. When they wake up and begin to show aggression, at least be careful!
don't be upset dude!

tauri103 · Jan 25, 2020

I avoid playing as much as possible against players who do not respect the basic rules and who call any card. when I have to play against one of them. I do not bluff and do not hesitate to fold when he plays aggressive while waiting for the right spot.

Luvulongtime99 · Jan 25, 2020

You also have to accept that even though you are 3 betting you will get called by a very wide range at a high frequency so checking or folding on missed 3 bets is not always a bad idea in micros.

AizenFalck · Jan 25, 2020

Serjo600 said:
Perhaps you are the fish, and your arguments that you were given a raise on the turn were rejected and you did not believe based on previous draws, a creative player can play with any cards against a tight player, especially if he has a large stack. Still, if you think this opponent is a fish, the Golden rule in fish is never to bluff. because fish itself pays on all streets, if in something engulfed and never would throw away their super cards), against fish not bluff, the same villains and maniacs, but your donk in 2 blind on flop gives maniac reason to think that you not bluff, in a whole under every situation there is configuring unambiguous decisions not case, there is mass situations when and as play, need abide by dynamics, if you on FR table raise its VPIP and PFR until marginal values, then prepare for what even with better you might get run over. You also need to consider the position, stage of the tournament, the pot odds, opponent statistics, play discipline, SH or FR table, the speed if it's a tournament, rebuynik or knockout, you can't just definitely say that I have lost because my hand was better, the percentage of luck has not been canceled, and if the error is repeated again and again, then you need to disassemble the hand on the forum and discuss how to react in this situation and get the maximum profit.

Exactly my first thought, neither more nor less, it seems to me that this thread is arrogant and belittle less expert players is the worst thing you can do in poker, even great professional players admit that when it is not your tournament everything will go wrong. So if you still believe that poker is written in stone and that just because you read something the tournament has already taken place in your favor, you will continue to lose against the so-called fish, and sorry for being so honest, but I also believe that the fish here is you with those plays you describe. Why would someone go all in without having at least one stronger hand than a couple of four? That clearly shows that you still have a lot to mature in the game.

Serjo600 · Jan 25, 2020

AizenFalck said:
Exactly my first thought, neither more nor less, it seems to me that this thread is arrogant and belittle less expert players is the worst thing you can do in poker, even great professional players admit that when it is not your tournament everything will go wrong. So if you still believe that poker is written in stone and that just because you read something the tournament has already taken place in your favor, you will continue to lose against the so-called fish, and sorry for being so honest, but I also believe that the fish here is you with those plays you describe. Why would someone go all in without having at least one stronger hand than a couple of four? That clearly shows that you still have a lot to mature in the game.

I also like you expressed your opinion on the ridiculous question why this is happening. If a person wants to find information, he is looking for it, and does not ask to "chew it and put it in his mouth". I do not set a goal to play professionally, especially in hold'em where in the current realities of online poker, only a few win. And on account of who should grow up, look at your game, I play poker for more than 10 years, every day, but as a hobby player

Jak0diamonds · Mar 15, 2020

Honestly sometimes ppl think they are playing fish when really they are dealing with sharks. Sometimes its profitable to donk bet, and some ppl will see a player play one hand and call them a fish over the chat lol. Easy to play your marginal hands as big as your premium ones, theres so much you can do so that its hard for your opponent toput you on a hand. Im just a rookie but from my exp, but sometimes youll loose with the better hand...the only time it hurts is when they should not have been in the oot at all

Evan Jarvis · Mar 15, 2020

poker_bro said:
I have studied a lot of tournament theory, especially Jonathan Little's content - how to beat small stakes tournament. Increasing aggression have been the most profitable adjustment I have made.

These methods work against regulars, but when I play against bad players, whole concept collapse.

Two examples from yesterday.
Very bad fish raise, I 3bet with my TT´s, he made min-4bet (2x my 3bet). I know this guy raise with very bad cards, and he can have basically anything, impossible to hand read. The flop came, low cards, no possible flush draws, maybe some weak straight draws, can't remember clearly. I checked with my overcards to see what this guy do, he made the smallest possible donk bet, I was pretty sure he has AK, or maybe some kind of lower pair, connected suiter, not any kind of premium hand, so, by this bet sizing tell + he has short stack, I went all-in, because I didn't want to get him to improve on the later streets. He called and he showed a set of fours, I lost a big pot.

Second example.
Fish raises from the Button, I called from Small Bling with KQo (yeah, maybe mistake, I should 3bet) and the flop came, Queen, and two hearts Jack and some lower card, my King was a heart, that blocks possible flush draws. I made a bet, and fish from the Button reraised minimum (2x of my bet sizing), I called. The turn card was a six heart, possible flush draw completed, I checked to see what fish is going to do, he made a donkbet, smallest possible bet to a big pot, I called of course. River card, another six, opponent went all in. By those bet sizing tells I was sure he can't have a good hand, no logic, I thought he will have maybe Queen with a lower kicker, he won't make just 2x reraise with premium hand on the flop. I was sure this is some kind of stupid bluff, pair of sixes in the flush board will be the perfect spot to bluff. I was so wrong, I called and he showed Jacks, full house, and again I lost a big pot.

Here were two examples of how difficult it is to play against opponents who don't know how to play "right".

We can forget bet sizing tells, and hand reading, hmm, just directional.

Before I have got great results by nitty and passive play. The most important goal was to see a flop as cheaply as possible, and when I hit something good, I play very aggressively. That worked against bad players very well, but then I started to change my strategy and overall rate improved, but against bad players, I lost control

So, tell me how should I play against very bad players? Should I follow GTO strategy or what? Recommend me some topics to study, I think I should google "how to recognize bluff, fish psychology, the meaning of donk bets and how to beat bad players". What else?

Study anything by Alex Fitzgerald, his material absolutely annihilates weaker players
http://gripsed.com/alex

I've applied his larger bet sizes both preflop and postflop and they work like a charm. If you're not adjusting your bet sizes when playing against weaker players you're leaving a lot of money on the table and giving them too good of odds to chase you down.

hartmann2508 · Aug 20, 2020

With a big difference in playing with regular and bad players, the concepts we create can disassemble if not applied carefully ...

NWPatriot · Aug 20, 2020

NCDaddy said:
... You can't go into a tournament and play every player the same way. Sometimes aggression works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes trappy play works. Sometimes it doesn't. The game is about adjustment to the player...

This is the essence of poker, adjusting to the situations. It takes a bit of history to really get a grasp on what an opponent knows and what he doesn't. I myself found it odd that I won a lot more before I knew anything. Then I started "learning" and my win rate dropped considerably, as I tried to implement what the "teachers" were telling me. The problem was more likely that I was implementing things incorrectly in the wrong spots. I think I have a much better grasp now and I hope I am back on the right track.

My only suggestion is to not blindly play a strategy. Pay attention to the table and adjust as necessary.

Good luck and God bless

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