Can't beat microstakes Sit and Gos

Hwood1995 · Jun 6, 2020

Hi,

Looking for some advice from some more experienced online micro players...

I'm losing motivation to play because I just can't seem to win anything. Today I played almost 600 hands of various microstakes sit and gos (ranging from $1 45 man to $2.50 180 man).

Most of the time I had 4 tournaments running at a time and I was using the free trial of PokerTracker so i had a HUD.

Whilst I'm fairly new to poker, I have done a tonne of studying and feel like I can make better decisions than most of the people I come up against. After my session I imported all my hands into PokerSnowie and it said I played at 'Expert Level' with a 9.32 error rate. I looked over my errors and blunders and a large amount of them were a result of me adjusting to my opponents stats.

I know I've still got loads to learn but I feel like I have a decent grasp of the fundamentals. The only issue is every time I deposit money on pokerstars it's gone in a few days. I'm really struggling to build any kind of bankroll and I'm not sure if I should persevere or give up and stop lighting money on fire.

Also I know that 600 hands across 16 tournaments is nothing and it's all about the long term, but I've had no evidence as of yet to suggest I will be profitable.

Would be good to hear other people's stories!

Thanks for reading.

Dmitriy Mishin · Jun 6, 2020

if you feel that poker is what you would like to do and study, then don’t give up, buy the official version of the program, learn how to do hand analysis, must play at least 10,000 hands on one limit in order to understand your game, learn strategies, learn hand charts, First, I use the ABC strategy at low limits, it is positive. Then everything is in your hands)) Good Luck)

DancingNancie · Jun 10, 2020

Hwood1995 said:
Hi,

Looking for some advice from some more experienced online micro players...

I'm losing motivation to play because I just can't seem to win anything. Today I played almost 600 hands of various microstakes sit and gos (ranging from $1 45 man to $2.50 180 man).

Most of the time I had 4 tournaments running at a time and I was using the free trial of PokerTracker so i had a HUD.

Whilst I'm fairly new to poker, I have done a tonne of studying and feel like I can make better decisions than most of the people I come up against. After my session I imported all my hands into PokerSnowie and it said I played at 'Expert Level' with a 9.32 error rate. I looked over my errors and blunders and a large amount of them were a result of me adjusting to my opponents stats.

I know I've still got loads to learn but I feel like I have a decent grasp of the fundamentals. The only issue is every time I deposit money on PokerStars it's gone in a few days. I'm really struggling to build any kind of bankroll and I'm not sure if I should persevere or give up and stop lighting money on fire.

Also I know that 600 hands across 16 tournaments is nothing and it's all about the long term, but I've had no evidence as of yet to suggest I will be profitable.

Would be good to hear other people's stories!

Thanks for reading.

How would you gauge your ability to get chips without showdown when you know you don't have the best hand? I think this aspect is critical at these stakes and a lot of time people are just trying to play the best hand and that is all. I think it is impossible to be a winning player without picking up chips when you don't have the best of it.

Hwood1995 · Jun 10, 2020

DancingNancie said:
How would you gauge your ability to get chips without showdown when you know you don't have the best hand? I think this aspect is critical at these stakes and a lot of time people are just trying to play the best hand and that is all. I think it is impossible to be a winning player without picking up chips when you don't have the best of it.

I'm fairly tight preflop but do play aggressively with some 3 bet bluffs in my range. I feel like I have a good idea when to cbet and bluffing with junky draws is definitely in my playbook.

However there are also times I just look and my hand and give up after the flop, even if it checks through- maybe there's some exploitative play i could use here but I'm currently trying to get the GTO fundamentals down.

The tounraments i go the furthest in are the ones where I have looser stats, but that makes sense because if you're getting dealt better cards you're going to be playing more hands. Most of my ranges are constructed from playing against PokerSnowie so I don't know if that's too tight for micro games?

DancingNancie · Jun 10, 2020

Hwood1995 said:
I'm fairly tight preflop but do play aggressively with some 3 bet bluffs in my range. I feel like I have a good idea when to cbet and bluffing with junky draws is definitely in my playbook.

However there are also times I just look and my hand and give up after the flop, even if it checks through- maybe there's some exploitative play i could use here but I'm currently trying to get the GTO fundamentals down.

The tounraments i go the furthest in are the ones where I have looser stats, but that makes sense because if you're getting dealt better cards you're going to be playing more hands. Most of my ranges are constructed from playing against PokerSnowie so I don't know if that's too tight for micro games?

I have not spent much time studying GTO and tend to lean on my exploitative experience. There are players I like to pick up which player would be exploitable and try and get in as many pots with them as I can. If I see that you are giving up on a lot of pots on the flop I am going to double barrel you a lot.

With that said, if you are working more on GTO theory I may not be the best person to give advice.

Luan · Jun 10, 2020

guy I think you should play the 1.50 $ 9p 18p and raise your bankroll and increase the limits with tenpos more in the same number of players these tournaments are much lighter to play I think better than those sng 45p, 90p and 180p.

nuttea · Jun 10, 2020

Hwood1995 said:
Hi,

Looking for some advice from some more experienced online micro players...

I'm losing motivation to play because I just can't seem to win anything. Today I played almost 600 hands of various microstakes sit and gos (ranging from $1 45 man to $2.50 180 man).

Most of the time I had 4 tournaments running at a time and I was using the free trial of PokerTracker so i had a HUD.

Whilst I'm fairly new to poker, I have done a tonne of studying and feel like I can make better decisions than most of the people I come up against. After my session I imported all my hands into PokerSnowie and it said I played at 'Expert Level' with a 9.32 error rate. I looked over my errors and blunders and a large amount of them were a result of me adjusting to my opponents stats.

I know I've still got loads to learn but I feel like I have a decent grasp of the fundamentals. The only issue is every time I deposit money on PokerStars it's gone in a few days. I'm really struggling to build any kind of bankroll and I'm not sure if I should persevere or give up and stop lighting money on fire.

Also I know that 600 hands across 16 tournaments is nothing and it's all about the long term, but I've had no evidence as of yet to suggest I will be profitable.

Would be good to hear other people's stories!

Thanks for reading.

I can advise you to try playing single-table SNGs for $ 1.50 -3.50 $ for 6-9 people. pre-punching registering opponents at sharkscope / poker pro labs for free. the game level should grow, the variance will decrease. plus to all this, you can slowly but steadily fill up your bankroll. Everything comes with experience, good luck

DancingNancie · Jun 10, 2020

nuttea said:
I can advise you to try playing single-table SNGs for $ 1.50 -3.50 $ for 6-9 people. pre-punching registering opponents at sharkscope / poker pro labs for free. the game level should grow, the variance will decrease. plus to all this, you can slowly but steadily fill up your bankroll. Everything comes with experience, good luck

Punching into sharkscope is a solid idea. I don't do that enough!

Sebarios59 · Jun 10, 2020

I also think that playing SNGs with fewer people could allow you to have better results in the short term and continue training for other types of SNGs or MTTs maybe.

mara2259 · Jun 13, 2020

At the expense of the long-term perspective, I will say this: very often the second wind opens with the last breath. About the experts. If you play at the expert level with an error rate of 9.32 but cannot collect a decent bankroll, then there are also good and very good experts who are doing fine. Conclusion: we must become one of them. For myself, I decided not to invest in any poker room. Having fallen to zero, I play freerolls until I get up again. Then at low limits. It is difficult to rise, but you can fall during the session. In a word, excitement!:laugh::dong:

ramdon p358 · Jun 13, 2020

Dude, poker is pretty tough game. You will only get paid in 10% of the tournaments you participate in and I don't say it, are the words of Patrick Leonard, one of the best players. You can try other games and see if the trend changes in your favor. GL

Pufik · Jun 13, 2020

games which are you playing have a big variability, and if you want earn some bigger money you must finish like first,second or third. others payout positions are smaller and smaller and that is not enough for building massive bankroll. My advice is just study study and study and try build 100$ bankroll on cheaper tournamets, and just then try something more expensive

and in my opinion, PokerSnowie is not great progams for beginners, because if you want learn something new with this. You must know solid basics about poker, and you must understand why PokerSnowie doing what you see. On the other side your game level stay stuck.

Roller · Jun 13, 2020

DancingNancie said:
How would you gauge your ability to get chips without showdown when you know you don't have the best hand? I think this aspect is critical at these stakes and a lot of time people are just trying to play the best hand and that is all. I think it is impossible to be a winning player without picking up chips when you don't have the best of it.

This is HUGE advice/suggestive thought. If only only win the hands you should win because you had the best at show down, then in my opinion you will never break even with rake considerations let alone make a reasonable profit.

Matt_Burns88 · Jun 14, 2020

Rather than focus on GTO stragety, you should look to play exploitatively against your opponents. This is because GTO is best employed against other players that are playing GTO or close to it. You're not going to find that in the micro-stakes.

KrazyKoo · Jun 14, 2020

if you dont beat these your mommy will spank you

fundiver199 · Jun 14, 2020

Pufik said:
and in my opinion, PokerSnowie is not great progams for beginners, because if you want learn something new with this. You must know solid basics about poker, and you must understand why PokerSnowie doing what you see. On the other side your game level stay stuck.

It is also worth noting, that the program is made to analyse cash game hands. It dont understand ICM, and I am not even sure it understand antes either? So for a tournament specialist you probably want to get ICMizer instead. Those 45-180 man SnGs on Stars is very much about understanding the push-fold game after the first 3-4 blind levels.

They are in my experience beatable, so as OP even state himself, this is also about patience and sample size. Just as an example when I moved back to 888 Poker recently, it took me 240 tournaments to break into profit and (hopefully) stay there. And this was from playing in games, I already had a lot of previous experience with.

https://www.sharkscope.com/#Player-Statistics//networks/888Poker/players/fundiver198

StealTheButton · May 30, 2021

Yes I agree that the biggest thing you can do for yourself is to bring it down to single table tourneys, and 6 max I think will improve your skills as well and force you to play more hands. It will also be easier to study player tendencies with only 6 people.

Keep your pre-flop raises smaller- like 2.25x - 2.75x.. The bigger pots get increasingly volatile especially at these smaller stakes. Also, don't feel that you have to C-bet. If you completely missed and your opponent is calling with a WIDE range of hands just check. When he checks back you may have an opportunity to steal it on the turn. As DancingNancy was saying- this is a skill you MUST learn too be successful- stealing a pot before showdown.

daurensdo · May 30, 2021

Yes, I can't do it either, I do better in tournaments.

Phoenix Wright · May 30, 2021

I don't know because I haven't really ventured into micro stakes yet ( I might in the near future, but so far it has been only free rolls and home games for me).

Maybe try playing less tables? Depends how comfortable you are with 4 simultaneous games. If you are playing 4 at once, then I assume you were winning against the micros with one table, right? Then slowly adding on to 2 or 3 and eventually 4...

If this step was skipped a bit, then perhaps that is one issue there.

Zapahlohotrona · May 30, 2021

Try to disassemble the database, find interesting spots, make an analysis.
When you devote time to theory, your skill automatically grows. It's just that times are different now, there are few fish, there are only regs at the final tables. So don't be surprised that it's going so hard, everyone is.

Uzbek707 · May 30, 2021

Yes, all the players are more abundant than before, so I constantly play sit and go for $ 3.50 there are all sharks, no fish. You have to be the hunters themselves than they hunted us

Pokerpoet2 · May 30, 2021

Trying to use a HUD with a 600 hand database is far from helpful, it needs thousands and thousands of hands to be more effective, and that is one reason I will not use them, I will not change the way I play, because some computer program tells me to fold or call based on limited information.
Go with your gut instincts, especially when you feel you are being targeted or bullied by other players, the number of times I have called with just a single top pair, against an aggressive player fishing for a straight of flush is mind blowing, but they still do it, their excuse is they had a draw, so what!
What really matters is who has the best hand on the river, I might not be right all the time, but the nature of some people will not change and they bet big even though they have nothing, because they know the only way to win is to blow you off your hand and bluff.
Poker is so much more than mathematics, statistics and GTO, As Tony G says "You have to have Heart" you have to believe in yourself and go with what you feel is right.
Sure you need to work out the possibilities and probabilities of what the other player is holding, but just because the flop comes 7,2,2, does not mean he is holding a boat or four of a kind, when he makes a continuation bet, more than likely he is holding 2 pair at best and wants you to believe he hit the flop and if you are playing AA or KK you probably have him beat.
Keep your stakes low, play for the pure pleasure the game gives you, and practice, practice, practice, It takes time, but if you play for fun the money will come.

When the fun Stops, STOP!

WickedFRoST · May 30, 2021

First, and foremost, if you are playing sng tournament, you need to have quite a good understanding of ICM concepts.

I would strongly recommend spending more time learning ICM spots while you're studying. Without a full grasp of ICM implications in various spots, there is no way you can make a profit playing sit'n'gos, even at micro stakes.

Try actually uploading your hands in the icmizer. Or, in fact, before using any poker software, I think it is always best to consult with a poker coach or a poker pro in this chat. Because, there might be the case, where you think you are using the HUD data correctly, but in reality, it may be providing you with misleading information. So first of all, make sure you actually understand how HUDS, icmizers, and solvers actually work.

And, final advise, just keep calm and learn. Low stakes are quite beatable. All you really need is a solid preflop strategy, and ICM awareness.

Adi8877 · May 30, 2021

i dont play much sng, play multi sngs often, but not regularly on micro, low level. First of all, depends on what speed you play, personally i play mostly turbo, so it can be different, but my experience, you can throw out the HUD on micro multi sng, better to play a lot and note a lot, for 1-2 months at least, if you play only daily 15-20 tourney. otherwise you wont win everyday, every week, and the profit - if you play okay max 5-10% but that's really the max. the longest insanse bad beat what i caught, recognized and recorded was around 350K hands.... so after 600 hands, you can't really reach any conclusion....

There are plenty hobby players, so dont be surprised if you run into days, when you face with ongoing bad beats, (river 1-5 outs, lost 80-20% preflop allins etc.)

On micro I usually play, 6-8 tables, i just cant reach my target if i play less, even if i make more mistakes on more tables, but it is still in the +profit zone. I always play in 'rounds', usually play down 16-24 for first then take a break, otherwise a bad beat (even constant top 3) can put me on tilt and burn some money. playing 3-4 hours, after half, 1 hour often more break, go back do it again 1-2 times more/day. (if i play only multi sngs)

Probably, you play on ps. what is the biggest, so i understand, and you can play these multisngs anytime, but for the beginning an other site can be better (i dont remember, played there long time ago, but i think their fees are over 10% even on sngs, not only tourneys, what is important as well, if you play reg. sng, multi sng, maybe that 1-3% fee difference between 2 rooms is your profit...)

Hwood1995 said:
Hi,

Looking for some advice from some more experienced online micro players...

I'm losing motivation to play because I just can't seem to win anything. Today I played almost 600 hands of various microstakes sit and gos (ranging from $1 45 man to $2.50 180 man).

Most of the time I had 4 tournaments running at a time and I was using the free trial of PokerTracker so i had a HUD.

Whilst I'm fairly new to poker, I have done a tonne of studying and feel like I can make better decisions than most of the people I come up against. After my session I imported all my hands into PokerSnowie and it said I played at 'Expert Level' with a 9.32 error rate. I looked over my errors and blunders and a large amount of them were a result of me adjusting to my opponents stats.

I know I've still got loads to learn but I feel like I have a decent grasp of the fundamentals. The only issue is every time I deposit money on PokerStars it's gone in a few days. I'm really struggling to build any kind of bankroll and I'm not sure if I should persevere or give up and stop lighting money on fire.

Also I know that 600 hands across 16 tournaments is nothing and it's all about the long term, but I've had no evidence as of yet to suggest I will be profitable.

Would be good to hear other people's stories!

Thanks for reading.

mclay · May 30, 2021

Adi8877 said:
i dont play much sng, play multi sngs often, but not regularly on micro, low level. First of all, depends on what speed you play, personally i play mostly turbo, so it can be different, but my experience, you can throw out the HUD on micro multi sng, better to play a lot and note a lot, for 1-2 months at least, if you play only daily 15-20 tourney. otherwise you wont win everyday, every week, and the profit - if you play okay max 5-10% but that's really the max. the longest insanse bad beat what i caught, recognized and recorded was around 350K hands.... so after 600 hands, you can't really reach any conclusion....

There are plenty hobby players, so dont be surprised if you run into days, when you face with ongoing bad beats, (river 1-5 outs, lost 80-20% preflop allins etc.)

On micro I usually play, 6-8 tables, i just cant reach my target if i play less, even if i make more mistakes on more tables, but it is still in the +profit zone. I always play in 'rounds', usually play down 16-24 for first then take a break, otherwise a bad beat (even constant top 3) can put me on tilt and burn some money. playing 3-4 hours, after half, 1 hour often more break, go back do it again 1-2 times more/day. (if i play only multi sngs)

Probably, you play on ps. what is the biggest, so i understand, and you can play these multisngs anytime, but for the beginning an other site can be better (i dont remember, played there long time ago, but i think their fees are over 10% even on sngs, not only tourneys, what is important as well, if you play reg. sng, multi sng, maybe that 1-3% fee difference between 2 rooms is your profit...)

I think that HUD at microstakes is not needed at all, it only interferes and distracts attention, because at microstakes it is generally not correct.

Can't beat microstakes Sit and Gos

Hwood1995

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Dmitriy Mishin

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DancingNancie

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Hwood1995

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