BB steal range, early levels, multiple limpers

This situation comes up enough that I'm wondering if there isn't an opportunity to steal fairly wide here versus a check. Can I get some thoughts?

PokerStars - $5+$0.50|10/20 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players

MP+1: 1,500.00
LP: 1,620.00
CO: 1,460.00
BTN: 1,460.00
SB: 1,480.00
Hero (BB): 1,500.00
UTG: 1,480.00
UTG+1: 1,500.00
MP: 1,500.00

SB posts SB 10.00, Hero posts BB 20.00

Pre Flop: (30.00) Hero has 8♠ 9♠

5 limps, Hero's range to steal?

I'd prefer it if there were a larger percentage of our stack in the pot for us to win, like 15-20%. Then we can just shove all-in and not worry about making any mistakes post-flop.

Here though I'm not even sure I'd like shoving if there were a lot of money in the pot already, would we really get five folds often enough for it to be profitable? You can probably ask the same question in this spot tbh, will your steal/ steal attempt + c-bet be successful often enough to make it profitable? Generally I'd say no.

Why are we thinking about stealing here? I don't get it.

To add 100 chips to our stack apparently here. The answer is there is no range. It's a micro MTT and those 100 chips we might steal aren't going to be worth much later.

WiZZiM said:

Why are we thinking about stealing here? I don't get it.

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I guess I just don't like the passivity of sitting back and waiting to see what happens here.

We raise here, get 1-2 callers, c-bet 80% of the flops and win 90% of those???

Is our raising range here wider or narrower than our normal opening range? On one hand I'd say wider but then I think about it more and come up with a narrower range. It's a spot that I see often enough that I want to explore it a bit.

Lets step back and think about this. We have a good speculative hand. It's really early in the tournament so the blinds and the limps aren't that much considering our stack size. You should know pretty good where you are at after the flop. Now for a couple questions. What do you think our fold equity against five people is? Probably pretty insignificant right? Were very rarely going to get five people to fold, so a steal attempt is very rarely going to work on the flop. You also run the risk of someone 3betting you when it gets back to them. if that happens you'll have to just toss your hand. So it seems to me, that a steal attempt will do nothing but loose you money pre-flop. You may be able to double barrel and take it down on the flop but even then it seems unlikely.

Your best bet will be to check and hope you get a good flop. If you have no reads on these guys I'd pretty much only continue if I get a straight and a flush draw, two pair, or flop trips. Anything other than that, without some good reads, will just have you loosing money in the long run.

I know there are a couple schools of thought out there on early SNG play with speculative hands. However, neither of them are having you do a bunch of stealing and raising with them. It's either get in cheap and hope for a good flop (which you can do really easy here), or the other side says to let them go (not really relevant in this case).

I should also add (and it looks like eric mentions the same thing) that the real value of a hand like T9s lies in hitting a monster flop that we're willing to play for our whole stack. So by raising we're sort of denying ourselves the implied odds needed to draw to those sort of flops, by 1) lowering the SPR's and 2) thinning the field. So yeah I definitely think I'd just check.

I mean, your question wasn't specifically about T9s, but it still ought to be said.

I see a free flop here for sure. Then if I hit a strong draw I check raise the flop. If no one bets the flop I get a free card.

Jillychemung said:

I guess I just don't like the passivity of sitting back and waiting to see what happens here.

We raise here, get 1-2 callers, c-bet 80% of the flops and win 90% of those???

Is our raising range here wider or narrower than our normal opening range? On one hand I'd say wider but then I think about it more and come up with a narrower range. It's a spot that I see often enough that I want to explore it a bit.

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Against loose passive/weak players i like to "Get in cheap, flop something neat, bet every street".

Against most tables, a raise preflop won't get rid of everyone. The chips we pick up are kind of pointless. So all we end up doing is bloating the pot OOP with crap hands. We miss the flop most of the time and when our c-bet gets looked up, suddenly we just made a bit of a mistake. Hands like 86s we really want to see a flop with these guys, flop something big and take stacks.

not to thread hi-jack, but had a similar spot today. Villains were all very fishy, like 35/5 or 40/0 types, but only ~20 hand sample probably. Pretty marginal spot, if they were all weak-tight instead of just loose-passive it might be an easier fold I think. But here I think it's still a fold (even though I shoved in game )

Full Tilt - $2+$0.25|40/80 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP+1: 1,330.00
LP: 1,190.00
CO: 2,855.00
BTN: 1,570.00
Hero (SB): 1,510.00
BB: 290.00
UTG: 1,210.00
UTG+1: 1,345.00
MP: 2,200.00

Hero posts SB 40.00, BB posts BB 80.00

Pre Flop: (120.00) Hero has Q:spade: K:club:

fold, UTG+1 calls 80.00, MP calls 80.00, fold, LP calls 80.00, fold, fold, Hero ???

^^^ I would just complete here and see a flop for 7 to 1 even though OOP. If I complete and the BB shoves, one or both fish call, then I most likely shove hoping to land a huge side pot at least.

If the blinds were 50/100 or more then i probably shove over the 2 limpers.

cjatud2012 said:

not to thread hi-jack, but had a similar spot today. Villains were all very fishy, like 35/5 or 40/0 types, but only ~20 hand sample probably. Pretty marginal spot, if they were all weak-tight instead of just loose-passive it might be an easier fold I think. But here I think it's still a fold (even though I shoved in game )

Full Tilt - $2+$0.25|40/80 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP+1: 1,330.00
LP: 1,190.00
CO: 2,855.00
BTN: 1,570.00
Hero (SB): 1,510.00
BB: 290.00
UTG: 1,210.00
UTG+1: 1,345.00
MP: 2,200.00

Hero posts SB 40.00, BB posts BB 80.00

Pre Flop: (120.00) Hero has Q♠ K♣

fold, UTG+1 calls 80.00, MP calls 80.00, fold, LP calls 80.00, fold, fold, Hero ???

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man i wish i read this thread earlier. was in this exact same situation, same amount of limpers, same hand, just 1 level up in blinds. I Shoved trying to pick up the limpers money and add to my stack, even though i know a fold was right. but was called and lost. I usually don't like to get involved in hands with limpers at these micro levels unless i have a big hand. I feel like they call more then they fold after limping.

Thanks for the discussion folks. I'll NOT be changing the way I play my blinds in these multiway pots.

Clambake420 said:

man i wish i read this thread earlier. was in this exact same situation, same amount of limpers, same hand, just 1 level up in blinds. I Shoved trying to pick up the limpers money and add to my stack, even though i know a fold was right. but was called and lost. I usually don't like to get involved in hands with limpers at these micro levels unless i have a big hand. I feel like they call more then they fold after limping.

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One level higher I think a shove might be correct. That'd be 50/100, right? Pot size vs. stack size is VERY different in that case and a shove to steal is probably right.

In the hand posted, folding is decent...playing OOP with that hand against 3 people is likely -EV. Shoving is too spew-y I think...stack is a little too large. The final option that I also kind of like is a go&go type move. Raise it up to around 500 and shove 99% of flops HU maybe 85% 3-way. You also create a scenario where you might get looked up in all the spots, but then you're probably flipping against the all-in with a side-pot you can attack to cushion the flip.

@OP - in the bb you just have to be fairly standard with a hand like 89s. The range for putting in a raise there is mainly strong hands with MAYBE a few small PP's for balance (not likely an issue at these stakes). If you do raise, you'd have to make it something like 150-200, which is pretty steep to try and snag 100.