Jack Daniels
Charcoal Mellowed
Silver Level
Question about 3-bet/4-bet terminology on 3rd street in Razz or other Stud games
Yikes, I finished typing and realized I typed a book to ask a short question.
Oh well, I'm leaving it now in case I said anything drastically wrong that could be corrected along with answering my question.
OK, so I need to get 3-bet/4-bet terminology straight in my head as it relates to Stud (or more specifically for me, Razz) and only need it clarified for 3rd street action (since 4th-7th street is just like post flop betting in limit hold'em).
I'm completely clear on the 3-bet and 4-bet terminology as it applies to hold'em and any other game where blinds are used. But "blind" games are different than Stud games in that in blind games the person in the BB still gets to act last PF regardless of the action in front of him. So when it gets limped around to him, the BB has the option to check or raise.
In Stud, they don't have blinds to force action on a hand but instead they have the "bring-in" which functions very similar to a blind with two key differences. First is that there is never more than one bring-in on a hand (vs usually having two blinds except in limited circumstances). Second is that the player posting the bring-in does not get an option on the table. His bring-in (whether he chooses to just pay the bring-in or opts to complete) is not only considered a live bet (like the BB is) but is also considered his action for that round (hence no option on the end).
So, now having said all that, the confusion I have is which/where is the 3-bet and 4-bet in the following scenarios.
Stakes: 100/200
Bring-in (BI): 30
Scenario A:
A1: BI 30
A2: Completes to 100
A3: Raises to 200
A4: Raises to 300
A5: Raises to 400 (pot capped)
Scenario B:
B1: BI - Completes to 100
B2: Raises to 200
B3: Raises to 300
B4: Raises to 400 (pot capped)
So two simple scenarios. Either way the pot is a capped at four small bets per person, however scenario 1 has five actions before the cap is hit and scenario 2 only takes four actions to hit the raising cap (due to the bring-in opting to complete).
So, in each scenario, which action is the 3-bet and which is the 4-bet? I think Scenario B is pretty clear really. B3 is the 3-bet and B4 (the cap) is the 4-bet. But Scenario A throws me and I've heard it argued both ways. From one perspective, A3 and A4 are the 3-bet and 4-bet, respectively, because they are the 3rd and 4th actions. Makes sense to me (though I guess that would make A5 the 5-bet which I've never heard of).
Now, from the other perspective is that A1, while a live bet, doesn't count in the scheme of things because the small bet is 100, not 30. So in that case the arguement is that A2 (as completed to the first small bet amt) is the first "real" bet. If so then A3 is a reraise, A4 becomes the 3-bet, and A5 would be the 4-bet. This makes sense as the pot is then capped after the 4-bet.
Between the two sides of scenario A, I'm inclined to think the latter is more likely the answer than the former. (That whole 5-bet thing is something I've never heard called before in limit anywhere.) In limit I've always thought of the 4-bet as being the cap. Plus in scenario A, A2 is not called "raising" it is called "completing". This leads me to see it as the first "bet" with A3 being the reraise and A4 then being the 3-bet. In fact, if you play commentator it makes perfect sense: "A1 has the bring-in. A2 completes and A3 raises it up. After thinking about it A4 3-bets and A5 4-bets to cap the pot." So maybe I just thought through and answered my own question, but I've typed too much here to not post it. Plus maybe it helps someone else.
So can anyone confirm anything or everything I've said and/or give me a non-guess answer to my confusion?
Thanks.
Yikes, I finished typing and realized I typed a book to ask a short question.
Oh well, I'm leaving it now in case I said anything drastically wrong that could be corrected along with answering my question. OK, so I need to get 3-bet/4-bet terminology straight in my head as it relates to Stud (or more specifically for me, Razz) and only need it clarified for 3rd street action (since 4th-7th street is just like post flop betting in limit hold'em).
I'm completely clear on the 3-bet and 4-bet terminology as it applies to hold'em and any other game where blinds are used. But "blind" games are different than Stud games in that in blind games the person in the BB still gets to act last PF regardless of the action in front of him. So when it gets limped around to him, the BB has the option to check or raise.
In Stud, they don't have blinds to force action on a hand but instead they have the "bring-in" which functions very similar to a blind with two key differences. First is that there is never more than one bring-in on a hand (vs usually having two blinds except in limited circumstances). Second is that the player posting the bring-in does not get an option on the table. His bring-in (whether he chooses to just pay the bring-in or opts to complete) is not only considered a live bet (like the BB is) but is also considered his action for that round (hence no option on the end).
So, now having said all that, the confusion I have is which/where is the 3-bet and 4-bet in the following scenarios.
Stakes: 100/200
Bring-in (BI): 30
Scenario A:
A1: BI 30
A2: Completes to 100
A3: Raises to 200
A4: Raises to 300
A5: Raises to 400 (pot capped)
Scenario B:
B1: BI - Completes to 100
B2: Raises to 200
B3: Raises to 300
B4: Raises to 400 (pot capped)
So two simple scenarios. Either way the pot is a capped at four small bets per person, however scenario 1 has five actions before the cap is hit and scenario 2 only takes four actions to hit the raising cap (due to the bring-in opting to complete).
So, in each scenario, which action is the 3-bet and which is the 4-bet? I think Scenario B is pretty clear really. B3 is the 3-bet and B4 (the cap) is the 4-bet. But Scenario A throws me and I've heard it argued both ways. From one perspective, A3 and A4 are the 3-bet and 4-bet, respectively, because they are the 3rd and 4th actions. Makes sense to me (though I guess that would make A5 the 5-bet which I've never heard of).
Now, from the other perspective is that A1, while a live bet, doesn't count in the scheme of things because the small bet is 100, not 30. So in that case the arguement is that A2 (as completed to the first small bet amt) is the first "real" bet. If so then A3 is a reraise, A4 becomes the 3-bet, and A5 would be the 4-bet. This makes sense as the pot is then capped after the 4-bet.
Between the two sides of scenario A, I'm inclined to think the latter is more likely the answer than the former. (That whole 5-bet thing is something I've never heard called before in limit anywhere.) In limit I've always thought of the 4-bet as being the cap. Plus in scenario A, A2 is not called "raising" it is called "completing". This leads me to see it as the first "bet" with A3 being the reraise and A4 then being the 3-bet. In fact, if you play commentator it makes perfect sense: "A1 has the bring-in. A2 completes and A3 raises it up. After thinking about it A4 3-bets and A5 4-bets to cap the pot." So maybe I just thought through and answered my own question, but I've typed too much here to not post it. Plus maybe it helps someone else.
So can anyone confirm anything or everything I've said and/or give me a non-guess answer to my confusion?
Thanks.
